Real Talk with Tina and Ann
Tina and Ann met as journalists covering a capital murder trial, 15 years ago. Tina has been a tv and radio personality and has three children. Ann has a master's in counseling and has worked in the jail system, was a director of a battered woman's shelter/rape crisis center, worked as an assistant director at a school for children with autism, worked with abused kids and is currently raising her three children who have autism. She also is autistic and was told would not graduate high school, but as you can see, she has accomplished so much more. The duo share their stories of overcoming and interview people who are making it, despite what has happened. This is more than just two moms sharing their lives. This is two women who have overcome some of life's hardest obstacles. Join us every Wednesday as we go through life's journey together. There is purpose in the pain and hope in the journey.
Real Talk with Tina and Ann
Even Your Lowest Moment can be Redeemed Part 2 Mikey Silas Interview
Cleveland's best vocalist/songwriter, most interesting person, Mikey Silas, talks candidly about some of his worst moments and how the band , Apostle Jones, became part of making amends.
Ann and Mikey explore how personal struggles intersect with music to drive transformation. Mikey shares his journey of overcoming self-doubt, the grief of losing his father, and learning young that he was in control of his destiny. . His experiences demonstrate how adversity can serve as a catalyst for personal growth, helping him unlock his inner strength.
Ann reflects on the biblical story of the "Sinful Woman" and connects it to her work with incarcerated women. She and Mikey discuss how self-image is shaped by both personal views and societal expectations, which can lead to self-sabotage through addiction or modern distractions. They highlight the importance of recognizing and valuing their own worth, especially in the face of these challenges, as a way to heal and grow.
The episode also talks about how supportive relationships help us grow and become stronger. While discussing the song "Superstar Disaster" by Apostle Jones and Toby Raps, they focus on legacy, accepting flaws, and the power of being vulnerable. Mikey stresses that real change happens when we show up, are true to ourselves and connect deeply with others.
Ultimately, the episode illustrates how music—like life itself—can be a powerful tool for healing, self-discovery, and transformation.
Songs from Apostle Jones featured in this episode! Superstar Disaster with Toby Raps
This is Part 2 of "The Healing and Transformative Power of Music,"--Even your lowest moment can be redeemed.
Songs by Apostle Jones, including "Superstar Disaster",
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Castro: Real Talk with Tina and Ann (castro.fm)
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Anne, and Tina is coming back next week. This is part two of the healing and transformative power of music, but I have to tell you this is much more than music. Mikey Silas is one of the wisest people I've ever talked to, and I have talked to a lot of people, but I came out of this episode having to write so many things down. In fact, tina and I are going to be talking about it in depth next week. Please tune in. He has some great visuals. I can tell you that you just have to hear this, and if you haven't heard part one, go to RealTalkWithTinaAnncom. You can tune in any place that you get your podcasts or WDJYFMcom on Sunday mornings at 11 o'clock. All right, thanks for listening. This is part two. You know I wrote a book and it was a while ago, but the woman that I related to the most in the Bible was the sinful woman just known for her sin.
Speaker 1:You know she was known as the sinful woman in Luke 7.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know her not blame her, you do.
Speaker 1:But anyway, the church leaders and everybody were just looking at her and they're just pointing at her and they're just say you know, she's a sinful woman Again, no name or anything. And I was also. I worked in the jail system for a stint and the women in there, I loved them and I related so much with them. But one of the things that they would do is that they would see themselves for what they did. Or, you know, they'd just be like hi, I'm so-and-so and I'm a murderer or I'm a prostitute, and that's how they saw themselves as somebody in a moment in time, something that they did wrong, and that's their definition of themselves. Or they allowed other definitions of themselves and shame and everything to overtake their own voices of themselves, of themselves, and shame and everything to overtake their own voices of themselves Did you ever have other voices louder than yours, to keep you from believing in yourself.
Speaker 2:I would say one of my shortcomings is maybe I come across as not truly believing in my talent. You know they say, well, you don't really understand. Like you don't understand how you can affect. I'm talking about me, sorry, I guess it is in my podcast today. This is about you, I know. See, here we go.
Speaker 2:This is my point, I think sometimes believe in yourself, be that one, be the one who comes up and says you know what. I do come into the room and I do light it up and I do feel good about it. But there's something about it where I feel like maybe it's that from my parents I have to work and earn that you know the ability to say and I don't believe that all the time, you know, and I'd rather, I'd rather sit and figure it out and be patient with it sometimes, and I think some people can perceive that as me convincing myself that maybe I'm not worthy of something or I'm not good enough at this, or as something that holds me back in certain areas. Yeah, I don't know, that felt good to say out loud, but now I feel like sheepish about it for some reason you are good and you do have an amazing message.
Speaker 1:So, whether you want to own that or not, you do.
Speaker 2:It's funny, you just remember this too. So in college, as I was failing out of it and what should have been my fourth year, I was like on the student, like government, like leadership committee, like I was all involved in the school but I was failing my classes. It was made no sense. Eventually I went to college for about two years, go back, do a community thing and then graduated three years later. So kudos to anyone who's gone, who's dropped out but came back and finished Awesome. To anyone who's gone who's dropped out but came back and finished Awesome. But that year the director of that student leadership department gave the like 12 different people on this leadership board for student government. It sounds really childish but it's pretty. This guy's awesome.
Speaker 2:Shout out Dominic Catone, love that guy. He made a CD for everybody and he put 12 songs on it and he says just want to let all of you know one of these songs is for you, but he wouldn't tell you what song it was. Oh so, and I think the I'm open for interpretation, but I think that you could listen to all 12 of those songs and find something about, about what you that spoke to you in each of those tracks. But he wrote a message on each individual disc that he handed out, and the message on mine was always remember what you bring to the world. I'm just like he's. He's a good. He's a good leadership guy because I think he could see that was something where it was just like he's a good leadership guy because I think he could see that was something where it was just like.
Speaker 2:I would constantly do things to be contrary to what what my gifts were like. Like put it, to put it in a in a, in a more kind of like example format, if my let's, let's say my, my super X-Men power was showing up and making people laugh, I would just not show up. So it was like that type of situation. I would not be remembering what I bring to the world. What's this showing up and making an impact? Instead, I would be falling back. I'm not saying that happened, but it probably did happen a bunch of times. But I think in general, I think if you ask yourself, what do you bring to the world, you answer some of those questions like your purpose, like the areas that you can grow, the areas that you can effectively change or give back to the world around you, and that's been one of those other things that I think really shaped that sort of period of my life. So we're talking about 20 years ago, not quite, but just about.
Speaker 1:You know, what I hear in a lot of the things that you say throughout this entire podcast is there is so much self-sabotaging.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I think that's the word I've been dancing around. I bury so far deep down inside.
Speaker 1:It's like you get there, it's like you get to the finish line, but like I bury so far deep down inside. Yeah, it's like you get there, it's like you get to the finish line, but then you're like, oh, hell, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean honestly. Yeah, there's a lot there. I mean we might have to get a cup of coffee now to talk about that, but you know there's hey, I call them mile makers.
Speaker 1:There are times in my life that define me and I never, ever go. You know, you never go back once you hit that moment in time. And there's times like my dad died when I was 11 years old. I was never the same again. Never my adoption. I've adopted my kids, times where I've been pretty badly abused. I'm getting sober. You know there's so many mile markers in my life, good and bad.
Speaker 1:Yes, for sure so you know what are some of the most defining moments in your life, good and bad, that you feel that you can share, that maybe even kind of keeps you from crossing that line to another major mile marker.
Speaker 2:I knew you were good. I know you were this good. I mean, there's a lot of things I remember. I'm not really a big person or I was going to cancel me with some people probably. I just never been a big fan of therapy the not the act of like therapeutically healing and stuff like that, but sitting down and talking to somebody in a, in a clinical setting, I tried it. I'm not sitting here just kind of dogging the thing. It just it's never been super helpful for me or it hasn't been super helpful in in breaking cycles or patterns in my life.
Speaker 2:I think I'm just one of those people that has to experience some of those things like the heartbreak and the loss and stuff like that, to really have that motivation to keep going. Now, what that says about me, I don't know and at this moment I'm not worried about it. I do think that there's been a period of my life where that was kind of like a chronic thing. Now, a lot of that was very self-defeating choice-making in my life and I feel I'm in a place now where I can look back and say these were choices I was making, even though even though I do sometimes think like I saw this analogy yesterday, um, and it was if you ever want to like, if you ever want to tell an addict or someone, why don't you just stop doing it? Like, just stop, stop killing yourself, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop effing people over, stop doing all this type of stuff, stop, stop, stop, stop effing people over, stop doing all this type of stuff. And it's like tell that to someone who's like addicted to their phone to go 24 hours without checking their phone and every time you think, oh, I wonder if I have an email, or oh, I wonder if there's an Instagram notification, oh, I wonder if that person texts me back. That chronic ping that goes off in your head thinking about your phone is that chronic ping that, in some people, is their constant reminder it's time to use, or it's time to indulge, or it's time to whatever. And I think that's like.
Speaker 2:I think it's important to bring up in this context, because I think that there's a certain level of pinging that happens at times where, for a while in my life, it felt like all right, this is going to fall apart. This is maybe when I played hockey. I was never good enough to go all the way, so I figured there was an end in that route there. Maybe in theater I felt, well, I'm good enough to get in the shows, but am I good enough to be the lead? Maybe there was a shortcoming there In songwriting. Maybe I'm good enough to write the song, maybe I'm not the best one to like finish the project, release it and get a million streams, you know.
Speaker 2:So I feel like there is sort of this, like there's this beginning, middle and end to a lot of things in life that I'd probably say pretty consistently have felt like I can't get to that end result and I think it's manifest. I think that manifests, and I think, my work as a leader in the group and stuff like that. It's important that I surround myself around positive people and people who are strong-willed and people who know how to do what they know how to do and how to show up in spite of difficult circumstances sometimes, because I think that there's an element of where I feel I lack as a leader sometimes is that final product, final goal, destination, goal driven decisions is a huge thing for me. I think sometimes this is kind of the other side to those mantras that if it's meant for you, it won't pass you by. You know these sort of things where you not saying you make excuses, but you allow yourself to sort of sit with with letting things go, and I think that's so important. But in the context of self-sabotaging and stuff like that, I think over the course of the last couple years there's been a shift in that in that way for me.
Speaker 2:But for many years I feel like there was that period of time where I would get to a spot in what I was trying to accomplish or do and I'd be like, oh, traditionally I, or consistently I've gotten to levels in other areas, I go back and start over. I go back and start over, and I think there's a certain character that's built up there, there's a certain style of getting stuff done, there's a certain resilience that comes from that sort of like conditioning, if you will, and I think one of those mile marker, landmark things where I felt like things are shifting over the course of last year and stuff like that. It's like I could surround myself around all these powerful, amazing people. But last year I rode through the year with this realization as the year evolved and it was a very transformative year. It was kind of the end of grieving, of a severe grieving for my dad Some of the life life really instilled in me and it was a very transformative year. It's kind of the end of grieving, of a severe grieving for my dad. Some of the life he really instilled in me, and it was would constantly work with me on stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Um, I had to face those things head on by myself. I had to realize no one is coming to save me just so. It was one of the I could sit there and I can constantly supplement the things that I feel I have short comes on to other people, people in the group and stuff like that. But if me as a leader or a representative of the group in a larger way and sometimes if I don't have that resolve to save myself in a situation, how can I expect anyone else in this group or this group to evolve past a certain point If? If I can't do it for me, why A why would they do? Why would someone else do that for you when they could do it for themselves and preserve themselves and stuff like that?
Speaker 2:So there had to be the sort of like this energetic like whatever that missing cup was in the makeup of my chakras or soul or whatever that was depleted and not full. I had spent last year really emptying that out, cleaning it, getting a spark below chlorine in it so it didn't get dirty again. No one was drinking from some toxic self-belief. You know whatever that was like that that ability to like work through situations and to come out on top as your own, not your own savior, but but your own, but your own motivator, your own, your own, your own change maker for self and for the things that would normally drive you off the road or onto detours or over that cliff, I think was super important for me to go through. Because that idea, just that whatever I can do for I can't expect anyone else around me to do what I can't do for myself. I just think there's a certain law of averages in the universe. There's probably some mathematical equation for it. In order to have a true equilibrium there has to be balance on both sides and I was way out of balance many times in my life in these areas and I think that sort of up and down is where a lot of sort of those dips and sort of those mild markers of disbelief or redirection have popped up in my life.
Speaker 2:So I can go back to like talk about therapy really fast. Sorry, this is a little random. Not random, it's great, it's so funny. But I was in therapy for a 16-week program. Okay, I remember for 16 weeks, saying I talk like I'm talking right now. I just talked If our appointment was from 3 to 4, girlfriend at the time she said Hi and bye and that 59 and a half seconds, 59 and a half minutes it's in the middle.
Speaker 2:Um was me just talking, talking, writing, writing, writing, talk, talk, talk. So at the end of the 16 weeks she's like we're about five minutes left. In our last session she goes okay, let me cut you off here. I was like she's like you know what? Um, you know, I've really've learned a lot, I've taken a lot in over the course of the last 16 weeks and you said a lot, you said a lot of things and she was like but the one thing that I really think that stands out about you is, even though you've had a lot of ups and downs and things like that, you never give up hope.
Speaker 2:I think it's your greatest strength. You just you never give up hope. I think it's your greatest strength. You just you never give up hope. You've not gotten. You just never give up. Right up man. I looked at her and I went well, I was sure, hope not and I can. Girl was fun, so I was out there. That's why I say 21 living on the run, baby, yeah, but it's like. But I think having that resiliency and that that's sort of back, that backbone of belief and hope, is something that was, that is, is where a lot of going through those ups and downs and rounds and u-turns uh, that that's where that's, that's where that's really woven into sort of like a I don't want to say an armor, but into just a posture to kind of keep going through life a little bit.
Speaker 1:Well, I think most people that are successful in whatever your definition of success is, it is just showing up. 90% of it is showing up.
Speaker 2:I always say, I would always say that you say, michael, just show up, that's it. I'm hungover, dad, I can't go to work again. They're going to fire me. Just show up, you know, that's it.
Speaker 1:And just keep showing up, and just keep showing up, and then you know, eventually it does. And sometimes you have to adjust your sails because there is, like this Chinese proverb you know you're going to land where your sails are heading. So if you need to adjust your sales in order to go a different direction, to land in a different place, that's what you need to do. But you just got to keep showing up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I saw a lot of young bands that or not young bands but people who are asking questions about how do I get gigs? Or or should I take this gig? Say yes to everything. You know who else said that? Oprah Winfrey. She said say yes to life. You know just that idea of if you say yes, the energy becomes yes, and then the yes becomes your wind, and then the yes becomes your landing point, and then you're living in sort of this bounty of yeses. So when a no comes in, you realize it's just a yes in a different way. You know ooh, no, okay, then that means yes, I should go that way.
Speaker 2:But I think there's something so powerful to that consistency and I think, going into that 2020 pandemic period, when it was about, well, let's just get up, we don't know what's going on in this world. I don't know what's going on with my family right now, all this other kind of stuff. We were able to sit in our guests, if you will. Yes, we're going to meet and keep playing music. Yes, we're going to say to these shows, even if they can't pay us, and that allowed us to really build a relationship with music that was a little bit more based on on a, on a relationship that was for creating for the sake of creating sake, but also with the mindset of like creating with a purpose, like if we can go out and play shows when no one else can or they're, frankly they can't.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I feel like there's a lot of elements of that consistency of showing up. I mean, if you think about it, right now, someone comes to you and they say, hey, we need to interview somebody for our podcast that we're doing over here in Springfield, illinois, or whatever. I'm just trying to think of the symptoms. But someone calls you, who are the first three people? You just trying to think of a Simpsons, but but, like someone calls you, who are the first three people? You're going to think of Someone you just saw, someone you just talked to, or someone who you, who you have consistently had a positive experience with in some capacity.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's good I tell these young bands I'm like say yes to the gigs you know, show up and work the door at the venue, do these things that allow you to be visible to a certain extent. I don't think it's or anything like that, and I don't think it's. I don't some of the best players I've ever heard in my life playing with me and we also happen to just be out and about a lot, you know, and those two things allow for a lot of possibility to happen and I do the same thing.
Speaker 2:I mean I'm always out, I've seen you about the last five or six shows and look at us here right now. You know what I'm saying Exactly, see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, could you talk about a certain song for me?
Speaker 2:Because I Get me out of my zone here. Let's go into a new one.
Speaker 1:I really love Superstar Disaster.
Speaker 2:Oh, fabulous Cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, could you talk about that? What's behind that? No-transcript.
Speaker 2:Disaster baby. It was one of those songs I wrote on my couch, just sitting there Without any music in my head and was writing A. I love Amy Winehouse. B. I love Freddie Mercury C. I love the. I love the lore around the 27 club. Like the story and why.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned Courtney.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Courtney, and then, um, so the Kurt Cobain Courtney love, yeah, so all of those things, and there's just such like the tragedy, you know the unfortunate circumstances around a lot of their, their deaths and their passing. So it's like um broke like whitney. You know whitney died. Kind of broken amy. But amy, um gone, gone like amy. Amy just disappeared. She's just gone now. Girl that sucks. Kurt cobain obviously shot courtney love just got called crazy a bunch of times and got looped into the whole thing and blamed and everything.
Speaker 2:I don't know, but there is a story around it. Otis Redding died in a plane crash leaving from the Cleveland airport right on the lake over here that no one likes. Teddy Pentegrast got in a terrible car accident lost lost use of both of his legs. So then kanye west kind of went a little off the rails socially and stuff like that, uh. And then michael jackson, like od'd by his doctors and stuff like that. Now I was relatable to me because I would feel like maybe it wasn't me, they just they overdosed me. I know what I was getting. So there was there was a little self-reflection in those lyrics, but a lot of it like, baby, it wasn't me, they just they overdosed me. I know what I was getting. There was a little self-reflection in those lyrics, but a lot of it is kind of so in astrology there's actually very significant events that happen every nine years in your life in astrology.
Speaker 2:So nine, 18, 27, 36, 45, or whatever that is, yeah, 45 into the 50, 45 or whatever that is, yeah, 45 into the 50, 54, 54 range. So every nine years there's sort of a shift that happens directionally in your life and and and the study and practicing of astrology that you can observe usually in, in in profound ways, I mean even on a general way, nine years old. What happens around that time in your life?
Speaker 1:Puberty.
Speaker 2:There you go, 18, you're kind of you're, we're given intellectual freedom, you know to we're able to make choices for ourselves now. So we've matured into puberty and then we matured into thinkers. 27, you know, like I think it's. No, that lates. What am I doing with my life? Finish school, all of your friends start getting married or move on in another capacity, kind of starting over from scratch a little bit.
Speaker 2:And I really thought 27 was one of those ages, in a way, where it's like that's where the path splits, kind of you know you can loop around and keep doing what you were doing. You know you can kind of live in that memory, bro, or you could keep going and evolve past that. And I feel like for some of those 27 turnabouts in people's lives, it can be a very tumultuous time, it can be very disruptive. It can also be very encouraging and a very big glow-up moment. So for me there's a whole thing astrological around it the 27 Club. So the lyrics in that song were definitely written to be a little bit clever, but there was actually sort of like the idea of just like you could be so great, but if you don't really want to do the things, to kind of like to take responsibility for certain things that you can control in your life, it might just be a disaster, in a way. Toby wrote one of the best verses I've ever heard in a song. Toby Rapp.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, thank you. It really brings a lot of. I mean, it's not a long song, it's definitely structured and written like a pop song. You know a verse, a second verse, a chorus, repeat it and out. You know, some music is just easily performed, created, packaged and sent out that way.
Speaker 2:We definitely wanted to do a song that had that pop structure, that radio um, if you will, or you're into the hook by 30 seconds and you know you're into the next verse, marker like that was important for us to see if we could pull that off. I think it was just something I wanted to do the band was interested in doing, because I write long songs. If you got a minute and a half, I got a long intro for you before you even hear a drum, so the band really helps tighten. But a superstar disaster was definitely one of those songs.
Speaker 2:That was written in a playful way but did have some serious reflection on life. Well, that could have been me, and I'll say I could have been amy whitehouse, but I could have been the one who didn't survive alcoholism. I could have been the one who shot myself. You know anything like that. You know so the idea of this sort of dichotomy of life where it's great but there's also some serious seriousness to it. So you can get deep with the lyrics. But for the most, like I'm curious to hear what you like. What's your take on the song?
Speaker 1:Kind of exactly what you're saying. But you know, you just list all these superstars at the very beginning. I mean you just hear one right after another and it just takes you into their worlds of disaster, and so that's exactly what I get out of it, and it's also it takes a little spin on it where maybe it's a personal journey as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, and Toby really does a nice job of bringing that element out of it, of that personalizing. You know he talks a lot about the fascination with these people, with these, with these iconic figures. If you will and you know, maybe everything you're seeing is not quite what it is, you know that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure if you just want to like, copy them and live a life just like them. Um, a star burns out to a baggie of ashes. You know, some of those brightest stars burn out the quickest.
Speaker 2:I think that's a natural ebb and flow to a lot of things in life. You know, and I think that at the most time when things do feel like they're getting really good, I I just genuinely believe, believe in a balance to all things energetically in life, that if something is the opposite, it could be so true, if I'm a real giving person, it means I also have the capacity to be very selfish. If I speak about a lot of love, it means that I'm also not speaking about a lot of hate. That lives on the other side of that and that's why I embody that all the time. But I think, understanding that you can't have one thing exist without the other People used to tell me all the time Mikey, you can't have your cake and eat it too. And.
Speaker 2:I hate that saying. What does that even mean? If I have the cake, why would I not eat it? So, to kind of my own little rebellious way, I'll show them I learned how to eat cakes from scratch and then I ate the cake. The little sayings drive me crazy because I'll take things very literal. I just always have. I'm the easiest person to drop a a joke on to be gone. I'm gullible if you tell me something just happened. I'm like, oh really, I'm not kidding bro. I'm like, oh man, I don't know, I still don't believe you're kidding. You can't lead a horse to water. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I just hear all that stuff all the time and I just wasn't ready to really understand functionally how that was relevant to me in my life.
Speaker 1:Tina and I did an episode one time and it was pretty cool. Since you're really into theater, you might appreciate this a little bit. All the members of the play are in your life. It's your play and all the people are playing their part, including the villains. And at the end of the play, which is your death, all the people are standing in front of you and they're asking you did they play the part that you cast them in?
Speaker 2:Ooh, I love this. So when I realized that you cast them in.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love this. So when I realized that I was responsible for casting some of those people in my life, I allowed some of them to be the director of my play. How it obviously resonates with you. Yeah, it obviously resonates with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's sitting right now, ann, in that spot where it's like, oh, I should have told that person to GTFO, but I'm sitting here.
Speaker 2:I'm like, no, but maybe I accept the fact that there was a need for that sort of challenge to to my own, my own journey, if you will yes like that iron sharpens, iron type of a thing, like if everything is love and light and clouds and heaven, you know, if there's no, if there's nothing to come in and disrupt that and to to sharpen those pearly gates, if you will, then there's really no point to it. There's nothing to define it.
Speaker 1:Well, everybody played a part. Hey, you know, those people played a role and it really hit me when we had that episode and it took me. Look, it was like my life was flashing in front of my eyes, you know, and it takes you to different periods of your time and you felt like, oh man, this person did this or this person did this, and it's like I started owning more.
Speaker 1:I had more ownership for my life after we did that episode, but on the other end of it, it helped me realize that I'm supposed to be where I am right now.
Speaker 2:As I say, if you lived here, you'd be home right now. Isn't it nice to be home sometimes, just like wherever you're at in life in general?
Speaker 1:it's in a treatment center, whether it's, you know, in one of your lowest depths of your life. That's where you're supposed to be and that's where you're supposed to begin.
Speaker 2:Now my life is reeling before me. I'm like, oh yeah, you know it's calming, is what it is. You know it's centered. It shuts my chatty thoughts up for a second and allows me just to be right here right now. I think that's called gratitude also. Things are the way they should be. What you have is what you're supposed to have. At that moment, there's an appreciation for where you're at in your life.
Speaker 2:I look, the saying of you know, whatever you feel like is your darkest, lowest day, your lowest moment. Inevitably my dad used to say something to this effect, but inevitably, um, someone out there wishes that they could be you at that moment. You know that. Let's say you're. Let's say you got a dui and you got a $10,000 lawyer fee coming in. You're spending a month in the county. You have all this crazy stuff going on. Someone else had a DUI. They came out of it without being able to walk anymore. They weren't able to. They lost their friend in the accident. They are armed to someone else, and who's to say which one is worse or better than the other? But some person might say well, I wish that I was the one that didn't have to pay all these lawyer fees. I wish I was the one that could walk again. But every lowest moment is there's always something about it that can be redeemed for quality, for a reason, and sometimes it comes as a lesson, sometimes it comes in the form of a blessing, sometimes it comes in the form of information that you can share with other people.
Speaker 2:My dad, well, I guess what my dad used to say was um, I'm sure you're familiar with the term character defects, but my dad would say michael, well, man, dad, this sucks, I don't have any like. Uh, every time I go to hit this note, I'm gonna use a elementary example. Every time I go to hit this note, I'm going to use a elementary example. Every time I go to hit this note, I can't hit it. You know, I can only sing these low notes.
Speaker 2:And he was like well, that's not a character defect, but let's just call it that. He's like well, michael, why don't you take what you can do and can't do and put it on a table? I'm going to ask all these other people here that are singers to put what they can and can't do on this table too. Eventually, somebody be like I can never hit those low notes. Can I use your low notes please. I'm like I can't hit your high notes and they're like well, you could have my high notes. So whatever you think of your defect is actually someone else's, someone else's goal or fulfills someone else.
Speaker 1:What a great visual oh. Your dad seemed so wise. I mean, you're just so full of your dad's words. No idea the man he was a great man oh and he's still living inside of you oh, he's everywhere.
Speaker 2:I'm like it rains on all of our shows. That's him at the end being like oh, I wish I could be there no, it's this thing with my dad's name was frank.
Speaker 2:Uh, frank steven harvick at the third, um, uh, the second, rather sorry, my brother's the third, my dad's name is frank I, and it happens way more than than you could even write a book about. There's always a frank moment that pops up, even in the name of the word frank. Uh, we just played shooters this past, uh, saturday night down in the flats and my mom mom was there, my sister was there, her husband was there. But unusual was I have my mom. My mom was adopted and she was adopted into a family that spread all over the country. So she has a lot of different relatives in a lot of different areas of life and different situations and stuff like that. So the California relatives were in town for a funeral. So my Uncle John I haven't seen him in years, probably since 2016, his beautiful girlfriend, my Uncle Tom's wife my Uncle Tom died a couple years ago, bless his heart and his son Freddy he's like 22. They didn't really none of these people have all been in Cleveland at the same time, especially in the last like 10 years. So it was an unusual family moment that we don't usually have because we're very nuclear here in Cleveland. I was kind of waiting for the Frank moment to come up, the dad moment to pop up, and it just wasn't happening. Right towards the end of our little break between sets. Our drummer's family is there, who are often at the shows, one of some of my favorite people in the known universe. And there's a different relative or friend to the family, no, a caretaker for one of his aunt's friends, I believe. For one of his aunt's friends, I believe. And she was just chatting, chatting, chatting, and out of the blue, a woman. Mind you, and it's not about woman or man, but in the sick case of my dad being Mr Frank, a lady comes up. She's like oh hi, my name is Frankie. He was like oh, he was sneaking in in a different way that day. It was just funny. That's just a more recent example of it. Or just call, I'll turn on the car radio after a gig and there'll be a caller calling in and their name is Frank. Right away, it just.
Speaker 2:But being able to communicate and to experience spirit and the presence of somebody is it gives me so much to look forward to every day. It just it. It allows me to feel supported and in some ways. I just saw this the other day and I kind of put it a lot of things in perspective, which is like someone will say they lost somebody. The guy goes what do you mean? You lost them? Well, you know they're not here anymore. Okay, so, um, they, they transitioned to the other side. Okay, so you know where they are. It's like, well, yeah, I mean they're not here, I don't see them anymore.
Speaker 2:And the guy was explaining kind of a TED Talk type of thing. You're telling yourself you lost, you lost, they aren't there. They aren't there and we're missing that opportunity to realize that they're just on a different plane, communicating with us from a different side. They're just on a different plane communicating with us from a different side and that really, if you say you lost this and you don't do this, you miss that opportunity to participate with the greater spirit and energy around you that's actually more present now, more omnipotent in some ways, because it's more accessible. There's such a richness to being able to be open to a greater spirit and dimensional energy around us. I truly believe that with my whole heart. So my dad is very plucked in there. He's very up there pulling some strings.
Speaker 2:I have no doubt in my mind that last year, when I was able to really do a lot of the things that I needed to do to let myself go, to rebuild myself and to gather myself and to really, um, save myself, if you will. Once I was able to do that for me, I became more and more open to letting the universe show me ways that that it can facilitate how I'm meeting with what I do on a daily basis, how it meets halfway. The opportunity, they say, like um, preparation and opportunity is where luck happens. Self-preservation and manifestation when those two meet is when life happens. So you can miss out if you aren't prepared and you can miss out if you don't show up to in order to kind of get those things. I don't know, I'm kind of no this you're talking my language.
Speaker 1:This is great.
Speaker 2:Really in that whirlpool right now, and I'm, I'm with it. It's not going down the circle, baby, I love it.
Speaker 1:So what you're just been talking about? Your father's legacy, basically.
Speaker 2:Where legacy basically where? What is your legacy? What do you want your legacy to be? In a weird when I go to that place to when I go into my mental office to try to figure out, I'm gonna write this. This answer here I immediately get. I immediately get interrupted with what I think someone who I've had a an adverse experience with would say instead Like they came in right away, they came right in through that door right behind me. Isn't that weird? So yeah, it just happened in real time.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've had many, many people that seem they don't even know me, they don't even know you. They maybe know you in that moment in time. Yeah, they formed their own opinion of you based on their own past experiences and yada, yada, yada. Nobody else can get into your legacy, they just can't. So just remove everybody, everybody adverse, everybody anything with your experiences, and just you what's your legacy?
Speaker 2:I want it to be big. Let me tell you, I want it to have. I want it to be one of those things where I do want people to. It's just the greatest thing in life to see people just win. It's the greatest thing in life to see truly evolve into something, to see them understand it and to get it about themselves. And I think for me personally, as I learn how to embrace that for myself, it's been allowing me to help unlock that. For other people it's sort of like a shepherd. I think I've heard this book called me a shepherd a few times and if my legacy is leading people, places and things to greatness and that's my greatness I feel very much a part of that overall victory.
Speaker 2:I think when all is said and done, people will understand how many opportunities and times I've had the profound chance to give up and to shut down, whittle away hate, be bitter, be angry, be ugly, be mean, be defeated, be dead, be sick in all the ways. The amount of times I've had that option to take that elevator down, I've either stayed put, stayed on the same floor, I went up and I think, when all is said and done, I think it's a miracle. I know we didn't really get into a lot of details about specific events and stuff like that, but it's a true miracle that I have any opportunity that I have these days that I do. I think when all is said and done, that will really be a loud and clear thing. At the end of the day, I decided that life was just more a better thing shared, a better thing given and a better thing inspired. At the end Does that kind of answer the question? It'll help making sure I'm on track here a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does, and it's not an easy question to answer. No, it's not, not when you have like five seconds to figure it out either I want to be remembered for being kind and loving and generous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do, you know, but I feel like. But I want to be remembered because that's what I did not because of, not because it was something easy to say right back.
Speaker 1:If I think of you and everything that you encompass with the band, one of the things that stands out to me the most and of course it's your songs, it's your lyrics, I mean it's everything. It's your relationship with the audience. It's a lot of that stuff, but probably one of the biggest things is your ability, first of all, to bring people together. The other one is that love is a verb and one of the things that you do is the bringing people up on stage and allowing people to have their moment that aren't even in your band, but you give so many a purpose and I see them come off of that stage, whether it's that one kid, you know, playing his guitar or, you know, maybe those little girls getting up and singing, you know, yeah, that was really cool. But to watch their faces when they get up and for that brief few seconds before they start, maybe they don't believe in themselves, maybe they're a little afraid. By the time they walk off of that stage, they feel purpose.
Speaker 2:I think, as you're saying, that I receive that and I do see that also.
Speaker 2:I'm lucky, I believe, enough right now to be living what I would want to call a legacy.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's why it's a hard question to answer, because I feel like I'm in that era right now where I am sort of doing stuff that I think might be some of the most important work or contribution of my life.
Speaker 2:If you will, it's probably, if I place it all together now, that where Cleveland is in terms of like of a modernizing world and society, and where the arts fit into that future vision for the city with the accessibility we have for more tools, and it's getting deeper into neighborhoods and communities that may have been marginalized or left out of the conversations before, that may have been marginalized or left out of the conversations before, to have these types of opportunities now as a city and then to be someone who can help people get that first key, which is I could do this if I really, if I just do it, or I can do it if I feel supported in some capacity.
Speaker 2:I think just the time place where I'm at in my life, what I've gone through, is allowing me to really live those values and pursue that sort of idea of what type of mark do I want to leave in the world around me? And I'm someone I think it's important to mark you leave on people I've talked about it almost this whole time like the how you affect the people around you is your is, is your worth, it's your value I see you up on that stage in for winter fest and there are what 30 000 plus people out there and your songs.
Speaker 1:I was in the middle of 30 000 people and there were so many people that were just like yeah, yeah, you know, and from Sade speaking her words to you, know, you getting up there and just singing what you can see, a man who was broken, a man who has done it, been there, you name it, and there he is. He's up there on that stage and he is showing you that he's a witness. He is like he has gone through it and look at me, look at what I'm doing. I've made it and you can do it too. You're giving hope to other people.
Speaker 2:Someone said something to me in 2014, which is again that big land turnover that's. That was a mile marker year for me 10 years ago and this is going to sound out of context, it sounds weird, but I'm not quite sure where this man's fascination with me came from at the time. But boy did I love this man. Oh boy, guitar, beautiful man, very wise, very mysterious in a lot of ways. I feel like you can never truly understand exactly the depth of his life and who he was and stuff like that Otherworldly figure to me, but very down to earth.
Speaker 2:I was truly in the next floating phase of my life, like I are a little unplugged. I could go one of two ways I could fall down a dark path or I could kind of maintain and there's an opportunity, and he was very keen on giving, finding opportunities for me. But he said one thing to me when I was really struggling and it was like it was one of those things where I felt I was, I had the talent and the charisma and all that stuff to be an effective person and a successful person within the Chicago community that I was in at the time, when he looked at me and he said he's like, do you realize that you're destined for greatness? And at that time in my life I had no concept of destiny. I had no concept of of how that applied to, how my actions and what I would do would manifest into what I could achieve to a certain extent, at least if I think back now.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't like he was like you got it going on, you could be number one on the pop charts, boo. It wasn't anything like that, it was just like and maybe it was a little mind trick, maybe you just got me thinking, I don't know.
Speaker 2:But him telling me that I was destined for greatness became that seed that is grown a shading, comforting, safe, protective tree that I've been able to climb into when I need to offer shade to others when they need it, offer fruit when you need some knowledge. The tree from that has grown, from that seed that he planted with me, um has allowed me to extend my branches, has allowed me to grow roots. I've been choosing. I've been choosing to water that seed more and more than watering um, something that doesn't grow or is planted in sand. You know the chance to establish a root system, sandcastles if you will. But like when he said that to me, that to this day has changed my life, you know.
Speaker 1:That's a mile marker.
Speaker 2:It is. It really is. There is a lot of. So then there's this term twin flame, that gets thrown around a lot. My understanding of a twin flame is someone who comes into your life in a big way and there's this immediate connection and it's fabulous. Or sometimes it can be volatile and inspirational. It could be destructive and clearing for rebuilding, but they usually come in and they disappear pretty quick, Almost like it pulled apart as fast as it built up.
Speaker 2:While this was extended over the course of a better year and a half or so, he was very much that twin flame that had information for me. I feel like a lot of the people and things in our life, whether they say to you directly or indirectly, everyone is matching or mirroring or complementing something in your life to bring that balance or that harmony or that fulfillment to everyone. There was no accidents or mistakes. This goes back to our very first part of this whole thing here, which is running into Michael Havri every day walking down the street where I figured he's got to have something about him that we need to connect with.
Speaker 2:I see so much. It's like a reoccurring ping that goes off and when you can really participate with the people, places and things in your life in a way, that's about sharing and growing and learning and offering and receiving. We create a society, a network, a family, a band, an arts, podcast and festival and all these types of circuits. We're constantly weaving and we're living in the sort of woven planes that we all create with each other every day and I feel like the more that we participate with the energies and the information and the skills and having these special type of conversations that we're having right now, the stronger and more profoundly impactful life can be for everybody.
Speaker 2:That's a shared experience and I really think a big part of life is living but also sharing. So you could have a band that has a lot of hits, but it's not the band's music that necessarily, at that point, is the most important thing that band is doing. In a certain way, it's all the like some. It's all the relationships are forming around that.
Speaker 1:When david bowie died, I heard someone say um, you know, I didn't know david bowie, but I sure have a lot of friends because of his music. Our layers are really thick and I've had many layers. You know my trauma layers, my uh, uh, you know addiction layers, my fear, I mean fear layers of mine were probably some of the thickest, but did you ever? I mean, what are some of those masks that maybe still need to come off?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I mean I think you and I are kind of like-minded when it comes to some of those layers. I think maybe similar experiences have helped shape and define those. I'll be 100 with you on this one. I think. One of the remaining layers I feel very layer-free in a lot of ways. I mean I was saying that's great.
Speaker 1:I'm feeling like free in a lot of ways. I mean I was saying that's great I like, I don't.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling like I peeled a lot of them layers back. I think that there's there's still layers of shame I'm such a big one there's definitely layers of shame about things.
Speaker 2:You know that I've been able to blend into my complexion, if you will. You know like I started to develop a sense of shame around not being perfect, I guess, in the eyes of other people. I think that's something that I, that I, that I work hard daily to not really give a flying fadoodle about, you know, but it's still there, it really is. It's one of those, it's one of those reoccurring, one of those shades you have to keep pulling up and down to let the light in.
Speaker 1:Believing in yourself, maybe.
Speaker 2:It's getting better. It's getting better it is, but I will go back. I'd really think, believing that I'm worth the work and the discipline it takes just to develop consistency in areas that could greatly benefit from a more consistent approach is definitely something. I don't know what layers blocking that for me, but that's one of those areas where I feel like I believe in myself, but do I believe I'm worth the sacrifices I have to make to really fully fulfill some of those things? So when you asked me about legacy and stuff like that, I'm like I don't know. I feel like I have, I feel like I'm doing a lot right now, but I feel like in terms of legacy I leave on other people is one thing, but what are my personal goals and what legacy do I have for myself? And it might be to really trust that I have done everything I could to achieve everything I want to achieve.
Speaker 2:And I think sometimes breaking old patterns and developing new ways of living is definitely a path I'm still on and some of those motivations get short, cut off or short short changed a little bit by this, by this fear of imperfection or the shame around not having done it at a different time in my life, or so we got a little mantras to work through some of those moments that have self-sabotaging.
Speaker 2:I think I could do a little bit more self-sacrificing to create some of the points and structures and rules to my life that will help just continue um where right now and where I want to keep going to well, you are a beautiful soul, you are a beautiful human, and I'm so glad that our paths crossed.
Speaker 2:I have a feeling we're just getting started, anne, in types of things that soften the world around us in a way that makes it, it gives people space and grace to find their footing, and I think being able to do that and what you're bringing to the world is so important. And I think being able to do that and what you're bringing to the world is so important. You know, take the time to have an empathetic, understanding and direct conversation about things. I think is something that I think a lot of the world is conditioned to. Not really slow down except and just kind of connect over. You know it's either you're either in or you're out. You're on time or you're late. You're on time or you're late. You were, you're good or you're bad.
Speaker 2:You know and this is kind of forget those extremes there's a much larger bell in the middle that we can all sit in, sit under and have this conversation while everything rushes to the sides. So I think what you're doing is fabulous and I feel very honored to have been a part of this podcast today. But, um, the support and the kindness and love you show is it's profound? Uh, it really is. I mean, you make, you make artists believe they're being heard. Uh, you make people believe they can be understood and that, to me, is um one of the greatest things you could do, and I know, and I hope you feel that for yourself, because you deserve to feel that understood and that impactful in the world, as you see in these artists and people around you. So, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Well, you are so welcome and I appreciate all of your words. And that journey started when I was little, where many people made their own and they, they thought they knew me and they really didn't know me and I would have really appreciated people sitting next to me on the grass, you know, just having a conversation and saying who are you? Yeah, not what think you know, not what you've done, who are you? So thank you for being a part of this. It means a lot.
Speaker 2:I loved it. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:So this is all for Real Talk with Tina in the end this week. Thank you, Mikey Silas, for being on and we will see you next time. See you soon.
