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Real Talk with Tina and Ann
Tina and Ann met as journalists covering a capital murder trial, 15 years ago. Tina has been a tv and radio personality and has three children. Ann has a master's in counseling and has worked in the jail system, was a director of a battered woman's shelter/rape crisis center, worked as an assistant director at a school for children with autism, worked with abused kids and is currently raising her three children who have autism. She also is autistic and was told would not graduate high school, but as you can see, she has accomplished so much more. The duo share their stories of overcoming and interview people who are making it, despite what has happened. This is more than just two moms sharing their lives. This is two women who have overcome some of life's hardest obstacles. Join us every Wednesday as we go through life's journey together. There is purpose in the pain and hope in the journey.
Real Talk with Tina and Ann
A story of perseverance and advocacy: Ron Sandison's Inspiring Journey with Autism
Diagnosed young, Ron Sandison was labeled emotionally impaired, but he defied all the odds getting several degrees and becoming an accomplished author, theology professor, and the first ordained Assemblies of God minister with autism. His story is a testament to perseverance and the power of advocacy. Join as we meet inspiring Ron Sandison, a beacon of hope in the autism community.
In this episode, we learn more about autism and discuss the importance of hands-on learning, educational policies, peer support and strategies to overcome social changes. Ron and Ann delve into personal narratives as Ann is also an autistic individual who got a masters degree after being told she would not graduate high school. The two’s very similar stories create an amazing episode while two autistic individuals discuss their triumphs despite the diagnosis. They talk about bullying and acceptance. They reveal the complexities of living with an invisible disability and how important it is to advocate and use social media as a tool for meaningful change.
Ron has several books out, but his upcoming book, "Adulting on the Spectrum," aims to guide young adults in navigating life's challenges with confidence and independence. Whether you're a parent, educator, or simply curious about the unique experiences of individuals with autism, this episode promises valuable insights and inspiration. Tune in and listen to these amazing autistic individuals talk about how they paved a path in their life and for others. Don’t let doctors, educators or anyone in your life define you. You, too, can surpass your dreams and become your best self!
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Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Anne and this is a very special interview. Today we have a truly inspiring guest, ron Sandison, author, speaker and autism advocate. Doctors said that he would never graduate, but Ron defied all the odds, from earning multiple degrees to becoming a star athlete and translating two-thirds of the Bible from Greek. Ron is proof that limits are meant to be shattered. We'll dive into his incredible journey, the power of advocacy and how his faith helped him achieve the impossible. So stay tuned, because this is a story of resilience you won't want to miss. You have several books out and one coming out in March, but I want our listeners to get to know you a little bit. First, you were diagnosed very young. I've heard stories of babies appearing pretty typical but abruptly changing. What exactly happened to you at 18 months?
Speaker 2:So 25% of all children with autism will go through the time of regression. I was one of them. In nine months I was able to say mommy, and I went from being able to say mommy to 18 months to only saying mom, mom, and I went from having perfect eye contact to no eye contact. My mom, having two sons not on the spectrum, knew there was something drastically different between them and me and immediately got me to a pediatrician and got me speech help with speech therapy.
Speaker 1:That is amazing that that happens. I mean you were completely engaged. Do you remember back then? I mean you probably don't remember the disconnect.
Speaker 2:I remember the disconnect in the sense that I was always lining things up and I had a Temple. Grandin had the temple or had that little thing that shoot that kept her pressurized. I had no man's valley and it was a hard table when I was about three years old and had a blanket on top of it and it had a train on it with animals and it was filled with my favorite animals and I still remember going in there to decompress and kind of like a cocoon. And then that's where I developed a lot of my memory ability and visual power, which has enabled me to memorize 15,000 scriptures, including 22 books in New Testament, and be able to write books in 1,200 hours that become bestsellers.
Speaker 1:This is amazing to me. You know, in kindergarten they labeled you emotionally impaired, but your mom knew you. Just talked about your setup in your house. I mean, obviously your mom knew you just talked about your setup in your house. I mean, obviously your mom knew what you needed and I think that that's so amazing. She learned very early in your childhood that if she wanted you to get the help or the needs that you had to have, that she would have to advocate or set that room up. So thank God for mom right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she says it this way advocate, advocate, advocate. Then your son or daughter will be an advocate.
Speaker 1:Well, she researched top professionals for learning disabilities to have you tested, am I right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, she had the top Henry Ford Hospital. At that time I was diagnosed as one in 10,000. Now it's one in 36 children I've diagnosed. She sent me to the top neuropsychologist in all of. I'd be able to compete on the track and field because I was three months past the age of it for Michigan High School Athletic Association and it went all the way to Cincinnati courts. It would have gone to the Supreme Court but I had already competed. And later on Gary Marison from Autism Speaks, who's a high-powered lawyer, used my case to help Anthony Starello out of New Jersey and it's become the present-setting case enabling all throughout the United States kids with autism to become able to compete past the age limits in high school sports with non-contact sports like track and field.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh that is amazing, see, you are forging the path for so many people is amazing, see, you are forging the path for so many people. And you know, I just love that people with autism are not how people you know experts define us and that we have so much potential, which we will talk about that more later. But they said that you wouldn't even read beyond the seventh grade level or attend college, which of course was not true. But when you went over and beyond what the doctor said, you know right now you are a professor of theology and you are on the advisory board of Autism Society Faith Initiative.
Speaker 2:Yep and the Excellence Center Ernie Els I'm on his advisory board and the Art of Autism Society Faith Initiative, yep and the Excellence Center Ernie Ells I'm on his advisory board and the Heart of Autism and I'm the first of 38,000 ministers right now in the Assemblies of God. I'm the first ordained Assemblies of God minister on the autism spectrum and they've been around for 110 years. So I'm paving ground even in ministry to be able to help other people be ordained. There's right now about four people in all United States who are openly autistic, who are ordained in different nominations, and I was the first in the some AG to be ordained.
Speaker 1:That is amazing, and you also have several degrees.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a Master of Divinity from Oral Roberts University. I have degrees in psychology, theology and also minors in Greek and minors in criminology. With my Master of Divinity, I have a perfect 4.0.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Interestingly, when I was in kindergarten, my teacher told my parents that she had never met a child like me ever in the history of her teaching, and she was a little older, so I'm not sure what that says about me, except that I really did have a lot of challenges and I did. Something really was wrong. So she told my parents that I needed help, and they took me to a neurologist and after a great deal of testing, they too said that I would not graduate high school. That was their results for me and my eyes did not converge, my brain was not able to retain or comprehend a lot of the things that I read, and I was very challenged, but I too, got a master's of divinity.
Speaker 1:So I find that so interesting that our paths took the same path. What do you think that we might have in us where people say you know what? You're autistic, because you know that was my diagnosis and that makes you not able to do these things. But you know we can do so many things. But what do you think it is in us for us to say you know what I'm going to show you. You tried to define who I was, but I'm going to defy the odds.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to use a quote from Armani Williams, the first NASCAR driver on the autism spectrum I interviewed. He said this tell me I can't so I can show you I can. And it's self-esteem, but it's also self-efficiency, it's a belief that when I begin something, I'm able to carry on to completion. And there's a great quote from Charles Spurgeon, the English preacher by perseverance, the snail made on the ark. So you can be slow as a snail, but if you're going in the right direction you're to get to your goal. And I think that's what it is is with us. We have everest gifts my memory ability, you have amazing gifts. But then we have valleys that are so low of um, disabilities and areas of challenges. But when we learn to take our strength and adapt and accommodate for our limitations, we build connections. And those connections, if we can market them, if we can have mentors or support team and if we can have the ability to delight, we can do amazing things. And I think that's what every successful person on the audience has made. Two things Number one they had someone who believed in them. They saw a talent there. They realized if I refine it. And then the second thing is they had someone who was willing to fight for them, to help them as an advocate, to make sure those gifts didn't lay dormant, we could have amazing gift.
Speaker 2:There's a guy, joshua Bill. He plays a violin. He plays a violin, sells out the biggest theaters in the world. When he plays, average ticket price is $100 to $200. But he one time did an experiment. He went to the Washington DC subway. Over a million people walked by him and he played with his $3.5 million violin and then after an hour he only got $30. So unless we market our gifts and we have someone who can market our gifts and believes in our gifts and help us to learn to be self-efficient, that gift may remain dormant. Thomas Edison, if you didn't have a mom who fought for him when they told him he couldn't learn right now we're enjoying life we may still be in the dark.
Speaker 1:You make so many great points. You know you touched on something a lot there, because lots of times when people hear the word autism, all they hear is the negative aspects of it. But people with autism are amazing people with the gifts that you just listed, with some great people. So I learned young not to listen to people that were telling me the things that I couldn't do and I focused and honed in on the things that I could do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the most successful people in the world learned that. And here's an example I went to school with a guy named Ryan Tatter. He had a great gift in music but, as most people started out, he had no audience. He had no great equipment. He had a $50 Omaha keyboard is. He looked where his connections were. He realized that his parents were missionaries. There were mega churches on every corner in Tulsa so he'd do concerts in churches. He got a CD done with the best equipment. Mtv had a contest, battle of the Bands. He turned in the CD of him playing and since it was professionally done, it was also DVDs showing him. He ended up winning and now we all know who Ryan Tanner is as OneRepublic.
Speaker 2:Too late to apologize. But what did he do? He took his strength music. He adapted and accommodated for his limitation not having a large audience yet not having the equipment and he built connections and his connection he used to market and now he's worth 150 million dollars. And I got to meet him while I was in college before anyone heard him and a lot of times with autism people like me, we don't have those connections. We're like 30 year old velcro shoes. We don't connect well and that's where I struggled for years and now I got my connections. A place where I have celebrities do videos for me, like Jose Canseco or the Million Dollar man saying everybody has a price for a million dollar man except the honey badger.
Speaker 2:And I've been able to learn how to build those connections and use the resources to my advantage.
Speaker 1:That is so amazing. You know Dr Temple Grandin that you mentioned earlier. She is a well-known autistic scientist herself and she said in special education there's too much emphasis placed on the deficiency and not enough on the strength. And I knew young that life was going to be difficult. But they said I would not be able to read. And I figured it out. I would read into a tape recorder, listen to it back, and then I would take notes and then I would make those notes smaller and smaller and more concise and then I would memorize them in order to take tests. And that was the only thing that got me through all the way. From first grade. I would do that till I got my master's degree.
Speaker 1:They told me I would not be able to hit a ball and I practiced until I got a home run. But I was really proud of that home run. And they told me I would not drive. But I drove on the opposite side of in a mail truck for just a short time for a summer job. But I did it and they said I would not ride a bike and I rode a unicycle in a parade. So I always took things a little bit further than they said I couldn't do, because I just wanted to prove to them that I could. You know, I love that your mom found your strengths and I love that she took your interest in prairie dogs and taught you how to read and write with your interests in mind. I mean, that is so important. She taught you art by drawing prairie dogs. By watching your mom write, you learned reading comprehension and memorized spelling words. That is amazing that she was actually ahead of the time. She knew back then how to reach you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, temple Grandin, the quoter again, we always quote her said this 80% of people with autism are visual learning. And she knew that. Prairie Pup right here he is. He's now 40 years old, desperate need of road gain, but don't get him Viagra, he'll die at his age. And I knew that she could use him to help me develop social skills. One girl made him a cowboy outfit, won a jean jacket, what he still has today.
Speaker 2:And through Prairie Pup I've met many celebrities. I met Isaiah Thomas, the captain of Detroit Pistons, two-time NBA champion and all-time leading scorer to Pistons, when I entered a drawing contest Detroit Edison poster contest and got first prize for Oakland County. He also met in 2002 Muhammad Ali Screech from Saved by the Bill. Currently he's met over 100 celebrities and my mom knew that Prairie Pup could open up doors. She was inspired by Proverbs 22, 29. Do you see a man or woman skilled in their labors? They would serve before kings and not obscure men. So she knew, if she could develop my gifts, refine my gifts, I'd serve before kings and do amazing things. In October, I'll be speaking to over 500 students in Detroit public schools, representing 20 different schools. They're top leaders and as a keynote speaker, I'm belonging in inclusion, but my moms use those gifts and talents and to use them to exploit and help me overcome those deficits which can be major at a time.
Speaker 1:I want to touch on something you just mentioned inclusion. What is your view on inclusion?
Speaker 2:I think with autism, inclusion is way more important than other disabilities because we imitate a lot and we're able to model what we see. So if you're in with all kinds of disabilities and you have autism, you're going to take on those disabilities in your mannerisms. But if you're with inclusion and you have a buddy who watches out, make sure they block so you don't get buoyed and they help you learn those social skills, you're going to be able to adapt them. And Proverbs 27, 17 says it's iron sharpens iron, so one man or woman sharpens another. And part of what helped me get married was I had a friend, steve Jones. He had the best social skills. He was six foot four, handsome, girls loved him so he was a chick magnet. And by hanging out with him and learning his mannerisms, learning when to not say a joke, when it's okay to joke, being able to relate to people, I developed those social skills. So I was ready to get married. Iron that sharpened iron and it prepared me.
Speaker 1:You know it's hard as a mom with three autistic kids to throw them out into the world, you know. I mean I don't know how your mom felt about that, but do all that you can to prepare. But the world and this is one of my biggest things and I even want to create a whole curriculum on for typical kids, who, you know, autistic individuals have to so often be a part of the world you know we have to figure it out and I want typicals to have a whole class on being able to learn about differences and how to meet them halfway.
Speaker 2:And that's what my fourth book is Adulting on the Spectrum an Insider's Guide to Navigating Life on the Spectrum. That's navigating life, and in 12 chapters I explain that, and a lot of books on autism. They do this. They give you advice and then that's where it ends. My book does this. It begins by sharing the skills you're going to need, then it gives a story of someone who learned those skills and became successful, and it doesn't end there. So you learn, you see, and then the final one is you apply or took, and then it ends with activities, not just questions group activities you can do. That teaches those skills Because 80% of people with autism are visual learners, they're hands-on. And Temple Grand says a lot of kids don't succeed in school because we've gotten rid of the hands-on cooking classes, the classes woodwork and mechanics. In my book it's a hands-on approach to autism where you see it, you learn it and then you apply it.
Speaker 1:And that's the only way that I ever learned. I have my kids in a Saturday in some after-school classes where it's cooking and gardening and it is all hands-on and they absolutely love it because they want to learn. But just sitting in a classroom and reading doesn't you know, doesn't help people on a spectrum. We don't learn that way at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we need hands on and we need those shop classes and a lot of schools have gotten rid of those kind of classes. But when we learn hands on, we can be creative engineers. That's the word that Temple Grandin uses for autistic, successful people.
Speaker 1:Any advice to parents on how to reach your child with their own interests? Yeah, because yours was a honey badger.
Speaker 2:So here's how Exposure the more environments you put your kid in, the more they're going to learn to adapt sensory-wise and be able to use their strengths to adapt to that situation and overcome the limitations they have sensory-wise. So when I got kicked out of Cub Scouts for beating up a clown, I had a sensory meltdown. In fourth grade my parents got me in karate, they got me in Indian guides which is probably not politically correct anymore and they got me involved in different organizations and things going on. When I was in middle school I started track and cross country. Any sport will make behavioral issues and sensory issues go down 25%. I talked about that when I was a keynote speaker at the University of Notre Dame. So the more they are exposed to different environments, the more they can adapt to those environments and adapt to their own environment too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I find that really interesting because that did happen to me. My mom got me in many different things and that I ran track and I swam. Swimming was the thing that helped me when I was in that pool and I don't know, maybe you felt this way about running as well, but it was like the rest of the world just kind of disappeared and I was able to just focus on that race and it just felt really good to me and, plus, we were able to get. You know, I think autistic individuals have a lot of energy that we just have to figure out a way to release so we don't have that meltdown, and I think maybe running and swimming and those types of things can help us.
Speaker 2:And it gets us in the zone. We're very focused when we're running. We block out everything else and it creates those endorphins that makes us feel good and we produce dopamine, which is a reward system. When we finish, we develop self-efficiency, we reach our goals, our body produces chemicals that celebrate with us and it's the best natural high that's out there.
Speaker 1:You talk a little bit about your meltdowns and some of the difficulties you had as a kid and that led to bullying and things like that. What can you tell our listeners or people who are helping kids who have meltdowns? Do you know how to help them?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the first thing is realize that there's different coping skills for different types of sensory overload. For me it's a bass Boom, boom, boom. When I hear that it makes my emotional level go way up. So maybe headphones, that are a coping skill to block out those sounds. Sometimes it's a smell.
Speaker 2:When I was growing up I couldn't stand bleach. I couldn't stand the smell of salmon, the fish, and by not being around those or being exposed slowly to them, then it can help break that down and make us less sensitive. Some kids just a sink going and that sound of natural water helps them calm down. And I've gotten to a place now where even when there's sensory issues I'm able to adapt.
Speaker 2:If you remember, they had the whole issue with the Flint River and it being so polluted and people getting lead poisoning all the kids. Last week I did a honey badger of the day Bible verse in front of the Flint River in Foshing Michigan after speaking there. And this river still smells like raw sewage but I've gotten to a place where I can block it out from years of being exposed to different environments. So I was able to do the two minute video even though the sensory overload was overwhelming from the smell of that river. I wish Governor Snyder at the time would have just gone by that river and he would have known this isn't a wise decision of giving people this water to drink because it smelled like they were decaying who knows what in there.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, I find that interesting that question, and I have just developed the tools. And our kids today who are autistic and they have like so much going on around them, they just have not developed these tools yet, and so it's just so important that we help them learn these tools in order for them to be independent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's important what tools are in your toolbox and even my honey badger has his construction on. See, there's a tool and he has his tools too and the more resources we have and the way we know how to use our resources and connection. That's what it takes to be successful, even a person like Jeff Basil, who's very successful at Amazon. He took a team. His original name for Amazon was Kadabra like magic, and a person overheard him and thought he said Kadiva, dead body, and they're like you do not want to use that title. And his computer designer said you want something that begins with A, so it gets first when it's Googled and looked up. And he said Amazon because it's the biggest river in the world, five times bigger than the next biggest river. But it took three different people suggesting that for him to realize it and it takes a lot of tools to get a job done.
Speaker 1:Which you just touched on something else, because autistic individuals are known for being so stuck in our ways and not being able to take advice from other people. And he did that, and I do that all the time. I'm sure that that's helped you get to where you are too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So here's a good example In 2008, when the housing market crashed, my brother, steve, said you need to buy this condo, and it was three bedrooms for about $50,000. I didn't listen to him and me and my wife are buying a condo right now. We're paying $240 for it. But if I would have heeded him then I would have made out like a bandit or like a honey badger. So a lot of times we don't listen to advice, but then what we do is, when we make a mistake, those same connections and same good resources. In the future, hopefully, you'll learn from it and that's what I've done. And he's told me now's the time to buy. This is what's going to happen if you don't buy right now. And we were able to get a house. We won the bid. Now we just got to sign the paperwork and everything's falling into place.
Speaker 1:You seem like you have a really great team of people around you. You know, one of the things that I've always called people are my external brains, and I have to have a team of people, and I don't normally go to places without an external brain because I misjudge what's going on or I don't know where to sit, or I don't know what to do, I don't know my expectations. I always try to go first to make sure that I can see where I'm going to sit, what's expected of me, and I look to my external brain to make sure I'm not misreading something. I have to check myself. You seem like you might have a team of people that help you do that.
Speaker 2:So here's what I call it our voice of reason, and I have that in my chapter on executive function because our executive function doesn't operate like most people. I have our voice of reason. I say our support team is our voice of reason and that's what you're talking about there and that's what I use a lot too, because a lot of Manderadian means where we focus on something and we can't, we fester over it.
Speaker 2:My brother, steve, there was something that I thought the taxes. I thought they'd be $3,500. And in one place they were holding like more than double that. And he said you can't Manderanian over that and focus on it. And then it turned out that I was right at 3,500. And then the original quote that he was getting was not accurate. So a lot of times we'll fester on something, worry about something, but our voice of reason, the support team, can say you know, don't worry about this, there's nothing you can do about this, here's who you call, here's how you do it. And then they called and found out and it was half of what they were quoting us and they had that wrong.
Speaker 1:You know, I well, I call it perseverating and because that's what I do, I perseverate on things and I normally the negative instead of the positive, unfortunately, and I just won't let it go and it takes up too much of my day. So in order for me to stop doing that, I have to bring it out into the world for somebody to do what you just said for me, and I have to get it out of my head and I have to talk to somebody about it in order for me to stop perseverating. And that really does help.
Speaker 2:And it helps to that we could talk to and then that releases it.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the hardest things for me was having an invisible disability and the bullying that came along with that. Because you know autistic individuals, sometimes you just can't see that disability and you can't see. I mean, can you tell us more about your experiences of discrimination, bullying and feeling like an outsider?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so a lot of times I felt like an outsider. There's a seal during 1989, during Ex-Enville Dez, when the oil covered everything and they spent $10,000 getting her cleaned up, and they called her Sally the seal. They use her as a celebrity to raise money for cleaning up the rest of the wildlife from the oil spill, and they built her a slide, and when she went slipping in the sea she got ate by a killer whale in front of about a million viewers on TV, and then they said Sally the seal became Sally the meal, and a lot of times with boys we're like Sally the meal. We get eaten up, spit out and not a clean sight.
Speaker 2:My worst bullying experience a kid stole a tarantula at a track meet and put it in a Ziploc bag, and someone dared me to take a shot, put and brew up some tarantula stew, and when I brewed up the tarantula stew, two people beat me up and I felt like Sally the meal. I got beaten up, eaten up, spit out. And they discovered, though, that if you have an older student hanging out with a younger student, by one year the odds of them getting bullied goes down 60%, and the other statistic that's even better is that if someone's being bullied in a high school and someone stands up to them, the odds of them getting bullied again go down 90%. So having people who are a support there, who are peers, is the most important things that school can do.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm talking about Having a class with typicals that learn about this and then pairing them up with somebody that has differences, that needs more help in school. And honestly I think that if they did that, instead of everybody sitting in their cliques and kind of mixing them up a little bit, I think that people would find that they have a lot more in common, but all they can see are people's differences, and that just really hurts me because you know, I have three autistic kids and all three of them have problems at school and two of them are now in a special school for kids, just for them, I mean. And they're amazing, the staff there is amazing and it's very small and there really aren't typicals there for them. But I am okay with that because they're still exposed to everything. We put them in everything after after-school programs and everything for them to be exposed with different people.
Speaker 1:But I want their school experience to be about learning and about you know what they need to, and they also teach them all the skills that they need to within the classroom. So I do love the school, but one of my kids he absolutely does not. He thinks everybody is being nice to him, even when they're making fun of him and that just kills me, because a lot of people with autism we're not able to decode body language and interpret social skills, and so we just are lost out there trying to make friends, and that really hurts my heart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I found that very common is a lot of times we think people are our friends but they're really taking advantages and it's easy for a kid with autism or a young adult with autism to get into legal trouble by someone having them do something illegal because they know that person's naive.
Speaker 1:My kids it's that They'll get in trouble at school and it will be well. Somebody did this or they wanted me to do this, and all three of them don't have that thing in their head yet and it's something that we develop over time. But they don't have this thing yet that says don't do this, they think it, they do it, and so they get in trouble. Or somebody else told them to do something. My one daughter when we were in Florida on vacation this summer, she found herself in a circle of teenagers and she's only nine and I was like wait, what's going on here? She was just swimming and then all this happened and then they were all making fun of her and I watched this happening and I said, no, come on, come on. And she's like they're my friends and I'm like, no, honey, they are not your friends. And she could not even pick up that they were making fun of her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's very common with kids with autism and even young adults with autism is we don't pick up those social clues. I wrote a chapter two called Risky Business, Decisions and Consequences, so people can learn how to make wise decisions, how they can be aware of their environment more, because then they can realize exactly what's going on around them. You know, a lot of times we're oblivious to our environment. That makes us easy targets for what I call the killer whale boys.
Speaker 1:Can you talk a little bit more what it is like to have an invisible disability?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so invisible disability. People don't see it. My mom often got this your son doesn't look autistic and she'd say this I'm glad he doesn't look autistic to you, but I wish he was having a full blown meltdown in front of your fine china. Then you never say he doesn't look autistic. So our disabilities we look normal but inside we miss social clues or we get overwhelmed by situations of life that wouldn't bother someone else. We have more anxiety. 80% of people with autism have an anxiety disorder, some kind of depression issues, more so than the general population. So a lot of times you can't see that. So then people don't realize it's there.
Speaker 1:As a Christian, have you had a difficult time dealing with people who are treating people with autism differently or, you know, maybe bullying them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've had a lot of issues with bullying and also with just being overwhelmed by having autism and having to learn how to deal with stress. And one of the things my dad always said is God's got you through this point. He's going to get you through the next point. You just got to trust God. Psalms 25.3,. No one who's hoping you will be put to shame. God hasn't gotten you this far to shame you. He's gotten you this far so you can shine forth with the gifts he's given you and advance his kingdom. And I think that's key again, that self-efficiency, that confidence we can have in Christ.
Speaker 2:I heard this story one time there's a shepherd. He's a good shepherd, he's in Kenya, he has sheep and he's leading them out. And here's his sound. It sounds like this he has sheep and he's leading them out, and he hears this sound. It sounds like this. So he goes and investigates and he finds this lion cub whose mom was killed by a poacher. So he starts raising the lion cub with the sheep.
Speaker 2:The lion cub thinks he's a sheep. Like an autistic who is being raised with sheep, he becomes very skittish, he has no confidence. And then, three years go by, the lion cub's now a lion who thinks he's a sheep. A lion comes upon the flock. The shepherd drives the lion away and then later that day that lion who thinks he's a sheep gets a drink of water and he sees his reflection, realizes he's a king of the jungle and he's pretty bad for those sheep. After that, and when we realize our own potential in Christ, our own gifts in Christ, then we can be like that lion and be able to conquer the situations we're in. But a lot of times kids with autism, young adults with autism we're skittish like a sheep.
Speaker 1:You know, my verse right now is Mark 10, 27, which you could probably, just, you know, say right now, but I will make a way where there is no way. You know, jesus tells his disciples you know, with man it might be impossible, but not with God, for all things are possible with God. This verse reminds me of, you know, the situations that I've been in, and God will always make a way. I feel that, no matter what has stopped me from moving forward, I believe that God parted the Red Sea and moved mountains, so I was able to accomplish the things that they said that I would not be able to. Now there is a part to this, and I wondered if you could talk more about this, because I know that you do this as well, because God can only help us so much, but we have to do the rest of it. We have to show up, we have to do the hard work, and I can see that you're built the same way.
Speaker 2:So the verse you quoted is with the rich young ruler and he says you know, it's easier for a camel than their eye and needle, and for each person in the kingdom of God and the disciples that's impossible. And Jesus is like everything's possible for him who believes. And there's a rabbi quote that predates that. It says this give God an opening the size of a needle and he'll make it large enough for an army to march through. So we give God just a small opening. He'll make it large enough so his army, his provision, his blessing, his favor can march through it and get us through it.
Speaker 1:I love that. You know you have written books and you have one coming out in March.
Speaker 2:So it's going to be Adulting on the Spectrum an Insider's Guide to, to navigating life with autism. And then my first book was a parent's guide to autism practical advice, biblical wisdom. It's a top-selling Christian book on autism and parenting all the time. And then my third book was Views on the Spectrum and Inside the Life and Faith of your Neurodivergent Child. Obviously, I didn't come up with these titles because they're tongue twisters, and my newest book is going to teach people how to develop those skills and it's written for young adults. It's a map to success in life and the good thing today now is we don't need maps anymore, we have GPS, and I like to say my book is a GPS because as they're going along, they realize I have this issue. They open it up. The book tells them exactly the ways to develop those skills. Then they have activities that are fun to do and as they do those activities, they're wax on, wax off, they learn and they apply.
Speaker 1:Will any person with autism get something out of this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it begins with the simplest things learning skills to be independent, goes on to the pitfalls of relationships and how to build friendships, and every topic you can think of. How does your brain process information? Because when you know how your brain processes information, you can realize how you can use that to your advantage and be able to accomplish great things. Also, sensory issues If you're overwhelmed by anxiety, overwhelmed by depression, you're going to miss out on opportunities. I'm going to share real quick. There's a study.
Speaker 2:A guy named Dr Richard Wiseman, you notice some people came to him and said I'm the luckiest man in the world or luckiest woman in the world. I married the right person, everything goes right. There are other people who are more like us on the spectrum I'm the least lucky person in the world. I lose my job, I break my arm and then next day I break my leg. And he knew there was no such thing as luck. So he took 150 people identify as lucky, 150 people identify as unlucky and did an experiment by sending him to a coffee shop and he was amazed by the results. So he told him you're going to meet someone amazing opportunity If you're lucky. If you're unlucky, you're going to miss out on that opportunity.
Speaker 2:But the real test was this there was a $20 bill in front of the coffee shop and the 150 who identified as lucky, 80% found the $20 bill. Of the 150 who identified as unlucky, only 20%. So he did a psychological analysis of all 300 and he discovered this the ones who found it, who were lucky they came there, they were in the moment. They were thinking about there's a great connection. They could hear the birds, they could see the sun and, since they were in the moment, they saw a $20 bill under their nose and picked up.
Speaker 2:The ones who didn't find it were more like people with autism. They had anxiety. They were thinking about when I get home, I got this project, I got to change diapers, I got to do this and this, and they were so overwhelmed by their environment and their circumstances that they were unable to see a $20 bill under their nose. And that's why a lot of times, people with autism are like that 30-year-old Velcro shoes. We're unaware of our environment and the people around us who actually make us successful in life and be able to thrive in life.
Speaker 1:That is one of the best visuals. I have ever heard about that. That is so good.
Speaker 2:Now. I don't miss out on any of those opportunities.
Speaker 1:And I don't either. I don't either, and I have learned to show up, pay attention, be more vigilant, pay attention to everything in my surroundings. It's difficult on the spectrum because you take everything in. You take everything in, and so it's hard to separate everything in order to experience it the way other people do. So it's taken a really long time for me to learn that, and when I have my external brains, or whatever you want to call them, it really does help me be able to do that better. But my son, who's on the spectrum, he would find that $20 bill. He finds everything on the ground. He can find a penny anywhere we are, so it's so cool.
Speaker 2:February they'll be able to pre-order. So again, it's Adulting on the Spectrum, an Insider's Guide for Navigating Life with Autism, and my other three books are on Amazon. They're in Barnes and Nobles. You can go to their sites and get them on there.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about those books because I'm very interested in them. I want to talk about those books because I'm very interested in them. A Parent's Guide to Autism. This is a Christian guide to autism how, as a believer, we can respond to these challenges, which is very interesting to me. This is the first Christian book on autism by someone with autism, and you wrote it to help parents raise autistic children. So if you could tell us a little bit about it and some of the people that you interviewed for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when I wrote a parent's guide to autism, I interviewed 50 of the most influential people in the world who work in the autism field and I shared 20 amazing young adult stories in there. And some of the people are like Dr Temple Grandin. I've been able to present with her three times, twice in person. Dr Lynn Coiney, the founder of UCLA Autism Center. I share Michael Branny's story in here. He's a track runner. I share Anthony Torello's story in here. He's a football player who used my case, sandison versus the MHSAA.
Speaker 2:Compete in New Jersey past the age of a place kicker, and ESPN did a movie on him, documentary called Kick Up Hope, and I share the information. This is everything you need to know from the moment your child is diagnosed until they enter adulthood. And then my book Views from the Spectrum A Window in the Life and Faith in a Neurodivergent Child. I share the stories of 20 amazing people on the autism spectrum. People like Rachel Barcelona, who's Miss Florida. Right now could be Miss America. Tarko, a pro baseball player. Armani Williams, who's right from Grosse Pointe, michigan. I've been able to go to his house before. He's a NASCAR driver and I share their stories. It's filled, packed with scripture. It also gives advice with helping your young adults to thrive not only in life but in faith on the spectrum.
Speaker 1:So what was your takeaway when you would interview each of these people? I mean, I'm thinking of Temple Grandin, but I mean you talked to some pretty amazing people, so did you take away something from each one of them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what I discovered is what I mentioned earlier is that all of them had someone who them. Yeah, and what I discovered is what I mentioned earlier is that all of them had someone who believed in them and someone who was able to market their gifts. And those are the two things you've got to always ask yourself is what gift does this kid have? How can we use this gift to adapt and accommodate for their limitation? How can we build connections in a whole village that defends them and protects them and also teaches them? If I give you a fish today, you're going to come back and want to fish tomorrow. If I give you a pole and teach you how to fish, you're going to be self-efficient.
Speaker 1:Now, I had heard that it was one in every six state children will be diagnosed with autism. Is it more than that now?
Speaker 2:now one in every 36 children I can't.
Speaker 1:That is such a big number yes, and here's the thing.
Speaker 2:So it's about five percent of population is autism and it's a spectrum and that's most logical mind, and three out of four people with autism are male. Three out of four people who are borderline disorder are female and it's the most emotional mind and it's about 5% of the population. So the most logical mind is autism. The most emotional mind is borderline. And then when you don't have the extremes, that's where we talk about typical and not being, um, neurodiverse you know, I've gone to even just a coffee shop and I had this experience happen to me.
Speaker 1:I went into a coffee shop in la and I said you, you know what I wanted? And she just what. And I said what I wanted and she's like are you talking to me? Because you weren't sure, aren't looking at me. And I thought, really, is that where we are, where people that are behind the cash register or in service industries are not able to know that there could be somebody on the other side of that counter? That has some differences. And for you to call me out like that was pretty rude.
Speaker 1:I also have another experience where I was going through metal detectors at an airport and they were like so fast you know my processing is not near as fast as other people and they're like put this here, do this, do this, put your arms up no, not like that, like this. And it made me feel my anxiety went straight up. I was unable to really do some of the things that he wanted me to do in the moment because it was just so fast. And if there are that many people out there that have autism, they need to figure something out to adjust, they need to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree Definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it would help us out tremendously. You know, I think that our anxiety would be down. I think that people would be able to go out into the world a little bit more if they had something like that. And advocacy is everything you know. You started a program, Spectrum, a program on advocacy, and I can tell you, having three kids with autism, I feel that that is my full-time job. So can you tell us more about Spectrum?
Speaker 2:Yes, I founded Spectrum Inclusion and it gets about 10,000 views a month and it's resources to empower young adults with autism for independent relationships and employment and I go around the country speaking on autism. If you have a church and you're hearing me, email me at Sandison S-A-N-D-I-S-O-N-4-5-6 at hotmailcom and I'd love to come out and speak at your church and do a conference there and help you guys develop the skills in your kid for them to be independent and thrive on the spectrum rather than just survive. So the resources are out there. I provide training on how to develop those gifts and talents in kids.
Speaker 1:You have a video called I Am Able and I would like to play that.
Speaker 2:Hi, my name is Ron Sandison. I work full time in the mental health field and part time as a a professor of theology at Destiny Ministry School, and I have autism. My journey with autism began at 18 months. Previous this time my development began normal, but 18 months I lost the ability to have eye contact. I also lost the ability to say words and syllables. I had previously learned, but I am now able because of the help of my mom. My mom never gave up on me. She had neurological testing done that determined that I had autism at two years old and the experts told my mom at the time I'd probably never read beyond the seventh grade level or be able to attend college. But she was unwilling to take their diagnosis and was determined to help me succeed in life.
Speaker 2:My special interest as a child, due to autism, was prairie dogs. I had my prairie pup right here. I carried prairie pup along everywhere with me from kindergarten all the way to fifth grade. In fifth grade, going into sixth grade, prairie pup was banished from the public school systems because they said I was too old to carry around the prairie dog. My mom used a special interest in prairie dogs to develop my ability in art by drawing a picture of prairie pup for the Detroit Edison. I ended up winning the Detroit Edison drawing contest and got to meet Isaiah Thomas Through my special interest over the years have been able to change.
Speaker 2:When I got to high school, my special interest became track and field and I was able, because of my mom's help and my dad's help, to be able to run on the track stream and set the school record for the 3,200 meter relay. I was also able to get full ride to college my first year at Rochester College for running track and cross country. From running track and cross country my interest changed to theology and all before I became an expert in the area I was interested in. In theology I became interested in and was able to graduate with a Master of Divinity and due to my memory work, which I contain in containers like this, I have over 20 of these filled with Bible verses. I can quote over 10,000 Bible verses, word perfect. And through this ability I was able to work for internationally known television evangelist, dr Jack Van Impey.
Speaker 2:After college, I went on to work full-time in the mental health field, helping people with mental issues through counseling and through groups to be able to overcome their disabilities also, and I also teach theology part-time at Destiny, as I mentioned earlier, and am able to share the Word of God and help people grow in their spiritual faith. At the same time, never allow autism to hold you back, because even if you have a major disability, like autism, you're able to do awesome things with the help of people who believe you are able. That's why autism needs to be refined, not cured. And then also I have a YouTube channel that's on Ron R-O-N S-A-N-D-I-S-O-N. Sanderson. I average with my dog he does better than me about 5,000 views at my dog. And then I have the honey badger verse of the day. Every day it's a different verse. Today it's Matthew 24, 36. Nobody knows what the day are, not even the angels, nor the son, nor the father, and I elaborate in the verse. In two minutes you can have your coffee. I already have power from God's Word.
Speaker 1:As you're talking about spectrum, what are some specific tools and strategies that you could recommend for parents who are struggling to connect with their autistic child? Because I have a friend of mine who has two kids where the connection is really really difficult.
Speaker 2:So what you want to do is learn how to adapt. If I went to Europe today, I plug in my electrical shaver, press a button, nothing's going to happen. But if I have an adapter and understand and put that in the currency is going to work and I can use my electric shaver, understand the autistic language, understand the autistic processing of the brain, then you got the adapter, now you got the strength which you plug into that adapter and then you can overcome those limitations and build those connections.
Speaker 1:And not everybody that has autism is the same and has the same language.
Speaker 2:You got it. Yeah, there's a kid we had years ago in the hospital and he was very limited in his communication. All he'd say is mommy home, mommy home. And he was about 25 years old. Then we told him you're going home today and he said cast up the chopper from Predator. And he got it right on the script for going home Cast up the chopper. And he said just like Arnold Schwarzenegger. So that was that kid's language. Was movies, life animated. I presented it with the guy from that, him and his son, and it was Disney characters was the language. That's the adapter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean we talk and I do this too at times. I have I've learned better interviewing skills when I started as a journalist. That really helped me. I think it's pretty good that. You know, maybe I always connected to entertainment and to music and things like that, and I think it really did help me communicate.
Speaker 1:Tony Danza has this saying that if you want to teach a kid how to act, you have to teach them how to act, and I think that that's really a good way to say that. We learn through so much with especially autistic individuals, through what we see. That's what how we learn, that's what we do. I mean, when I go into a room, I'm looking to see how are they picking up the fork and the spoon? Are we going to the salad bar now? Are we doing this, whatever? And I'm watching everybody around me in order to know what to do. And it's just so important that we realize that this is what somebody's language is and this is how they communicate, because all three of my kids are autistic and all three of them speak a different autistic language and it's learning how to reach them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you met one person with autism. You met one person with autism and that's Stephen Mark Shores, and I presented with him in Loveland in December with autism. And that's Stephen Mark Shores, and I presented with him in Loveland in December, and I think that's one of the most famous sayings other than I'm different, but not less, by Temple Grandin, but it's still true. Today is when he said it about 20 years ago.
Speaker 1:So what are?
Speaker 2:ways that parents can advocate. One is to see what the need is, realize what the accommodation is and be a voice for the voiceless and speak up and make sure that they get what they need and not back down. They got to be like a honey badger have perseverance and not give up.
Speaker 1:So we've talked about advocacy, but self-advocacy is one of the best things that I've learned and it took me a really long time. I mean, we have to co-advocate and first do it for our child and then hopefully, eventually you know we're doing it with them, teaching co-advocating together, and then hopefully you get to the point where you can learn to self-advocate. That's one of the most important tools a person with disabilities can learn. So can you give us some practical advice for our listeners on being able to do that?
Speaker 2:So you become an advocate by this. First, you let people know what your diagnosis is. Second, you ask for reasonable accommodation under Americans with Disabilities Act. Then you give them information or a letter stating what you need. Then you give them the reason for it. Then you give them the benefit. This is a benefit. If I get this accommodation, this is going to help you. And then the final one is perseverance, and you persevere and you don't back down until you get your accommodation met. When we advocate and we become with a platform people are going to accommodate for us, so we don't eventually wear them out by our coming.
Speaker 1:I'm just curious have you ever had a negative reaction to you trying to self-advocate?
Speaker 2:Yes, one time a person took it the wrong way, but I made it very clear to him that if I didn't get my accommodation, I'd make sure that people would know that this is going on in a free society. And then I end up getting that accommodation.
Speaker 2:I end up having to go to the head of this large corporation and I actually got the head of that corporation in charge of 600 other companies and I end up getting their full attention and, um, sometimes it takes that, but what I do, which is sad if I want to get in touch with someone there and I know they have the power to do it I always advocate to their executive director and say I'm not the person you want to do this to, because I will get to the top when I get there. They're not going to be at the top anymore when they find out that they treat a young adult who has a huge worldwide platform the way they did. And I said this is not the same world that they grew up in, so they may not realize it.
Speaker 2:With social media, people think that someone's anti this the Papa John's guy. Someone said the wrong thing. He said the wrong thing the wrong person at the wrong time. Now we don't have him in the commercials anymore, and even though he's a founder. So with social media, if you're a good advocate, you can get change. It's all the size of your platform. Your platform is big enough. People will come to you.
