Real Talk with Tina and Ann
Tina and Ann met as journalists covering a capital murder trial, 15 years ago. Tina has been a tv and radio personality and has three children. Ann has a master's in counseling and has worked in the jail system, was a director of a battered woman's shelter/rape crisis center, worked as an assistant director at a school for children with autism, worked with abused kids and is currently raising her three children who have autism. She also is autistic and was told would not graduate high school, but as you can see, she has accomplished so much more. The duo share their stories of overcoming and interview people who are making it, despite what has happened. This is more than just two moms sharing their lives. This is two women who have overcome some of life's hardest obstacles. Join us every Wednesday as we go through life's journey together. There is purpose in the pain and hope in the journey.
Real Talk with Tina and Ann
Attention Seeking vs. Connection Seeking Part 1
Join Denise Bard and Ann as we unravel the complexity of what truly lies beneath behaviors labeled as attention-seeking, especially in children dealing with trauma. Trauma and loss can profoundly impact a child’s need for connection. We aim to shift perspectives, advocating for empathy and understanding from adults and educators towards children unfairly labeled as “bad.”
Our conversation extends beyond childhood, exploring how unaddressed needs can manifest into adulthood, often leading to more significant issues, as seen in our work with women in jail. We examine how the absence of connection in formative years can derail lives and emphasize the pivotal role as adults play by simply asking if someone is okay. Through personal stories and professional encounters, we aim to foster a compassionate society that prioritizes genuine connection over superficial labels. Tune in to understand how meaningful connections can change lives and join us next week as we continue this vital discussion.
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Anne and we have Denise Bard back for this episode. This is an interesting one because the first time I heard the difference between attention-seeking versus connection-seeking, it literally stopped me in my thoughts. I would have said that I was an attention-seeking individual after my dad passed away, you know. I mean my sister was also given to the system and my adoptive mom took me on a six-week trip to God knows where, you know, all over the place, and it was just a really crazy time for me and I started. I know I was an attention-seeking person, denise. You and I talked about how I felt like I was an alien in my own body and I became a completely different person after that. I oftentimes say how you know, time was split. It was cut in half between before my dad and after my dad. I know for a fact that people the adults in the room would have called me for sure the attention seeker. I was craving for someone to pay attention to me, but back then there was no term for seeking connection. You know they just didn't talk like that. Back then it was if you either needed attention, period. You are that person. You're that kid. Bad behaviors were just that you were labeled, you were the negative term in the classroom and I felt it, I wore it, I did weird things. I did not do horrible things, I wasn't that person, but I did drink and I snuck alcohol into the building and I hid it in the bathroom.
Speaker 1:I did things like purposely try to get the attention of adults, and you know it wasn't anything horrible. You know, I think I've told this story before, but you know, like I wanted the attention of this teacher and she was dating this guy who was also a teacher, and so I snuck into her room and I think I was like in 10th grade and I snuck into her room when nobody was in there and I poured a bunch of condoms on her desk. Well, you know, I mean it was fun and I just like to do kind of goofy things. She walked in, we're all sitting there, and she comes. She's like who did this? You know it's like you. I mean I don't even think she ever blamed me for that, I don't think I got caught, but I mean I just like to have fun Because I'm an ornery person, I'm not a bad person, and so that's kind of how I sought it out.
Speaker 1:But I also did things because I really did honestly want connection. You know, there was a teacher that I connected with in seventh grade and I just liked her. Like you know, it kind of gave me this mom vibe and I just wanted connection with her. And one day we were talking about math and I just I was weird. I said that connection with her. And one day we were talking about math and I just I was weird. I said that I liked her and I didn't know how to explain to her that I liked her. But it just came across really weird and I think she always thought I was weird after that. You know, I was an autistic individual who just couldn't really put the words together sometimes to try to say what I was saying and I would talk in pieces, parts, and people would have to try to figure it out. So you know, after that she kind of stayed away from me and I did I end up, you know, running away to a person's house and it was a teacher.
Speaker 1:I was just looking for help. I mean, my life was so bad at the time and I was just looking for some kind of help. I think back then we didn't have all the things that we have in place now for kids. I mean, I know that that's true. Kids who were attention seekers were just that. Like I said, they were annoying and looked down on by adults and just expected to straighten up. And the adults in the room know that there is more to the story. There are so many kids with one-parent homes and recognized abuse. You know it's known. Maybe they're in the foster care or whatever, but we know that they've been abused so much used to be swept under the rug. No one ever thought these are kids that are hurting and they are not having their needs fulfilled. I mean, honestly, I think that adults just expected kids and I know that adults just expected kids to act like the adults wanted them to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. I love this episode because this is a topic that really hits home. You know, as you know, like I wrote the book the 30 Second Moments and the Women who Raised Me, the 30 second moments and, of course, like I speak, I go to, you know, to schools and I speak to educators and when I explain a 30 second moment, I said a 30 second moment is when a connection is made that goes unnoticed by them, these adults, these educators, but will be forever remembered but, most importantly, felt by these kids, and this feeling echoes long after the moment has passed because it is those connections. So, when I look back at my own life and you know, going through the traumas and the abuses similarly to you, where it was like you were looking for this parent, like not to get the attention of these teachers, it was more like wanting that connection with them.
Speaker 2:And then you were talking about how you were that kid, that bad kid. Well, in elementary school I wasn't a bad kid, like I didn't get in trouble except for talking. And I always say like when I'm speaking at schools I'm like just preparing myself for this. You know what I mean. But I will say, come middle school, when I had to move in with my mother full time when I was 12, I was going into the sixth grade and from sixth to eighth grade it progressively got worse and it wasn't and I say this in the speech I wasn't a bad kid, I was a hurt kid, hiding behind bad decisions, kid hiding behind bad decisions. So I just spoke at a school a couple of weeks ago, and it was a middle school, where I had this counselor, mrs Kessler. She's now Ms Boyd. Now she actually came to hear me speak and it was first time she really heard everything.
Speaker 2:But when I think back to her, and when I was discussing this in the, when I talk about this, I always said you know, when I was doing these activities, like getting in trouble for arguing, then I was fighting and then all this other stuff, I would end up doing that so that I would be called down to her office and it wasn't because I yeah, I wasn't looking for that attention. I, every time I was with her, I felt a connection with her, like it was this connection of I always felt safe in her presence. In my mind she saw the hurting kid that was always meant to be hidden inside. That was what was in my mind. And so you go in there looking for that kind of connection, and it's the same thing. It was like these teachers for me were these temporary moms, and so when you're looking for that kind of relationship, it isn't an intention, it is all about that connection, because that's the desire at least, that I had Connection is a basic need.
Speaker 1:We don't really even talk about that connection because that's the desire, at least, that I had. You know Connection is a basic need. Right, you know we don't really even talk about that, but you know you need the food, the water, the shelter, but connection is one of those basic needs that we have to have to reach our full potential.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and especially, I think, especially for those of us who have experienced trauma you know as kids. When you're in that developmental stage, oh my God, you know we need that. And when you don't get it, you get to the adult age. And you were so like.
Speaker 2:Now what so like um, now what? Yeah, and it's like you know what and and I think we've had this conversation before too, where even as adults, we were looking for that connection as well like it doesn't you know and healed or whatever. And I'm in therapy right now for all of this because I'm, I realize I'm like, yeah, gosh, it's like you're even. It doesn't matter how old you are. I like truly, truly believe in this. It doesn't matter how old you are, you still have that craving for a connection with, we'll say, in a parent role. You know I have to talk about, you know, my own like feelings. It's like you just crave that, and when you don't have it, you know you're going through mourning.
Speaker 1:I, you know, I honestly just think that we're all built for connection. That's what we're built for. I mean, you know, that was the way that we were wired and you know, even God is three in one and that was about relationship and he wanted connection with us. So we're all built for relationship, right? You know, when I used to work at the jail, the women every Christmas would turn in their list of kids who would not have a Christmas and we would help fulfill those lists. We would go to Toys for Tots and we would fill up our cars and you know, it was just one of the most joyful things that I love doing at Christmas.
Speaker 1:Giving is I love giving more than receiving. But you know, it was such a long list of kids who would not have anything for Christmas and they were so grateful. And the other side of that was that there were no cards that would come in for dads. Isn't that interesting that is. You know, there are so many women that are out there that are just doing it, and the men just and I'm not gonna, you know, because there's a lot of men out there that are pulling their weight and they're maybe the single parent yeah but I'm just telling you my you know what I saw when I was involved in the jails and there are just so many one-parent households where either side are doing it, working many jobs or just not there for whatever reason.
Speaker 1:I was that kid whose mom had to work after my dad died and I was 12 years old. I was letting myself in every day after school. I was by myself all day from the time that I got home and even Saturdays I made my own dinner, which was an old school TV dinner, and I would do my homework and I would not even call my friends because I had strict instructions not to do it and I was too afraid of my mom to not listen. So I didn't even make a phone call and I can't tell you how lonely I felt.
Speaker 1:I was that 12-year-old who did not have my rock, who was my dad anymore. My sister was gone and it was just a nightmare that I was living in this house. The only thing that was the same was my house, my bedroom, you know that kind of stuff, and my mom worked like 12 hour shifts because she owned her own business and did very well, actually very successful, and on Saturdays as well, like I said. So you know, it would be very late when she would get home, sometimes six days a week.
Speaker 2:So you know, it would be very late when she would get home. Sometimes six days a week, yeah, I go, so, my, I guess we. It's funny because I've been in my house right now, this house, since 2017. And it is the longest that I've ever lived in one house my entire life, and I'm 49. This is the first time.
Speaker 2:And so there was, you know, growing up until I was 12, I was in kinship care and then back and forth with my mother, so there was no stability. You lose connection with people because you're coming and going. You know, I was lucky and fortunate that I did from the time I was in kindergarten to fifth grade, except for one little episode. I stayed in my school and that's where my connections were made is because that was the only the only constant thing that I had. Do you know what I mean? And so, um, yeah, I'm kind of similar.
Speaker 2:Where you would come home and um, well, I lived with my grandmother. So, you know, for most part, and um, she was kind of there, but you know, when they weren't, it was you. You let yourself in, you let you rid of her. There was a lack of everything at at my. You know it was. It was just lacking, um, except for, like I said, school at school for me is where, um, you know, was the only like thing that I constantly had every day. Outside of that, it was, you know, the uncertainties of everything around you. Do you know what I mean? Right?
Speaker 1:We talk about uncertainty. I was 12 years old and I can remember I was sick one day and I was in bed my mom's bed, actually, because she had the better room with the better TV and our neighbors came in and started just cleaning all my dad's stuff out, just taking all of it, and I said that's my dad's. And they just said, well, your mom wanted us to take these out of here. You know, I mean that was the thing. You know, I mean that was the thing. Nobody would stop to really just think that I was a person, a child, who had just lost her father. And let's have a conversation, let's see, if you're okay.
Speaker 2:My mom never talked to me about my dad.
Speaker 1:I know I would have been difficult to have that conversation, so it would have been easier for her not to do it. But maybe someone else yeah, I think that there were people that I probably would have let have that conversation. Or even if you're the neighbor who's coming in to you know, maybe not do that in front of me, Maybe if I'm homesick and I'm in the room, maybe not do it. But it was done so cold, as if it was just so matter of fact. It was, I don't know. Those kind of things were just so strange to me because I am so careful with my kids and loss and how we handle it, and probably because of how it was handled with me, but I want I like I'm so cautious about how they experience it.
Speaker 2:I've had things done where you're questioned like do they see you? You're almost invisible. So then that brings again when you feel this and you're invisible. You See that's a great word.
Speaker 2:We go back to this attention seeking and, um, yeah, dealing. You know you're looking for, um, that connection. I think it always. I wish people would talk to you about it because I think these adults would talk to you. They can understand or at least you know, have an idea of what's behind your actions, what's behind or what's making you do this or feel this way. You know what I mean. You're like you.
Speaker 2:I mean, when you're younger you might not open up as much, but you hope the adults you know kind of can see through, like I speaking recently and that counselor came. We had time to talk about this prior where she knew something wasn't right and at that time the only thing she can do is you know, she did call social services, but you know she knew something wasn't right, right, and so I felt like again, there was some kind of a connection to me that I felt with her. Come out and say it, but it was almost like she understood why I might have been choosing the things that I have done, but it was really apparent when I got to speak recently and she heard you know exactly what I was doing and why I was doing it, to be able to share with that person Like what an amazing experience it's.
Speaker 1:it's just an incredible thing to have your teacher be able to sit out there and hear what you were doing.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I and and I've been fortunate so far the last two schools that I'd gone to and I'm trying to these were back in my district. So I was traveling up to New Jersey to speak to the to the two of the schools that I was at. Of course, everybody's tired, but some of them actually had these teachers that I had too, but both schools I had one person come that you know I write in my book about these teachers and specific teachers, and those teachers actually came back to listen and so I think when people don't understand the whole topic of attention versus connection, you do automatically say that's the kid who gets in trouble, that's the kid who's driving this person.
Speaker 1:Well, I didn't know how to seek for the connection. So it came out in behaviors, in weird ways, you know. So like I was so quiet, especially after my dad died, and I would act out with behaviors and look at a teacher for help in, like I said, the strangest ways it was just negative. It just came across negative and all I wanted was connection with someone, anyone to say can I help you, Are you okay? I mean, are you okay? Would have been a great three words. Are?
Speaker 2:you. Okay, less than 30 seconds. Yep, less than 30 seconds. Yeah, less than 30 seconds, that's it too. It's like, you know, when a kid has somebody, even an adult, you know, even today, as we, you know, are the age we are, I know there are some times where it's like I just want a connection with someone, a different thing. Your husband, I mean well, for me, my husband, I think we have connections with different people, but when you're lacking in certain areas, like you did with the uh, with the person or the teacher that you, you know, we're looking at as a mom, oh my God, I have man.
Speaker 2:I have this one teacher that I think, like I think she doesn't want to be near me or come out of the woodwork, has not come to the school, has not, you know, addressed. She read the book but she's never responded. And I think it was based upon this communication of me not being able to express to her in my mind, like how do I get her to understand it was connection, not a, not a, attention seeking. I wasn't seeking her attention, I was seeking this, but, like you said, like I think she kind of I don't know she disappeared and I know a lot of people were telling her about because I've been to these schools. Oh, we can't wait to tell her. I'm like, no, I think I've communicated in not so dire, you know, you just don't know how to do it. You know, even as adults we don't know necessarily how to make the connections, at least I don't think.
Speaker 1:Well, one of the things that I did was ran away to a teacher's house oh, and it was quite a ways from my house and police neighbors, you know they were all involved, they were all looking for me and I can remember being dropped off in the driveway by the police and again I you know it's really interesting to think this but he didn't ask me why did you run away? Isn't that interesting? I mean, today they would have done that, they would have tried to get down to the meat of why this child is on the run, but they didn't ask me. They just dropped me off and left and I don't even remember them walking me up to the door. Maybe he made sure I got in. I just think that's the weirdest thing that nobody was asking me if I was okay.
Speaker 2:That kid who needed attention.
Speaker 1:You know what Another thing happened was many years later, one of the teachers that was. He was my science teacher in seventh grade during the same time period and I ran into him at a reunion and he said to me I was like, oh hi, you know. And he's like oh, I remember you, you had a lot of problems.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, can you believe that that's what he said? Like how many decades later, so many years, and he still didn't say something like yeah, we thought you were having a hard time. You know how did things go after middle school? You know something more like that, instead of like, oh yeah, you, you were the one, yeah you know, yeah, yeah, I feel the same way.
Speaker 2:I feel, you know, you, you do like I ran away as well and yeah, they don't ask you, they're like no, I mean, it was like you know there, aren't you see that we're crying out for help yeah, crying out for help yeah and no and right and nobody, like, nobody asked.
Speaker 2:They think that you know I, I know my mother had portrayed to everybody that I just didn't get my way, so that's why I was running away. And I think that's sad because there are a lot of times where you're right. People don't run just to run. There's always a reason behind, there's something going on. I was brought to a shelter for runaway, abused and homeless youth and it wasn't attention seeking and my mother made it out to be that I was only looking for attention, and she did that several times when I ran away. That was exactly the same thing. It's just for attention. Where it's like that's not true, it's you for attention. Where it's like that's not true, it's, it's you're screaming out. But again, it doesn't necessarily have to be this heavy thing for us when we're looking for these, these connections.
Speaker 1:It's, it's, yeah, I want to be really small, Like you always say with your 32nd moment, and when issues aren't resolved as a kid, it leads to bigger issues as a young adult, which can lead to bigger issues as an adult, which could lead to more abuse. And you know I drink a lot because I just kept trying to numb.
Speaker 1:I mean, they thought that I had a drinking problem, but I really didn't. Well, I did, but it was a numbing problem. That was my problem. Was I an alcoholic? I thought so because it ran in my biological family. I really just wanted that feeling all the time. But after I grew up and I grew out of that, I realized that I could have a drink and it not really take me under. I didn't have to keep doing after that. But it was just interesting that it was seen again as if it was my thing. I was the big problem, what I needed, versus some people around me. It could have really benefited if all of us work together.
Speaker 2:I did a little bit about that too. You know the numbing of everything and you know currently, right now, I started therapy again because I wanted to figure out what was like, why I'm so stuck on again, because I don't think that there's an age limit on these things where you're seeking connection, and so I am like trying desperately to. I mean, I have my own thoughts of why I look for the connections, because when you didn't have them and these certain different categories of connection Like you don't have the mother connection, you don't have a father connection, or you don't have, you know, a spouse, I have a spouse, but you're still trying to figure out why you need this, why you need this, especially, like as an adult. I was trying to figure out why am I so obsessed with trying to find a connection to have? And I think a lot of people don't talk about that because you know, you figure, oh, when you're an adult, you can stop seeking that.
Speaker 1:Well, the people that don't understand that are the people that always had the connections. And I think that I almost see ourselves like with all these holes in us, and here's the mom hole, here's the dad hole, here's, you know, whatever holes you want to fulfill along the way, from birth all the way up through you know, the nurturing part and all that other stuff and to me I just see like a ton of gaps where the air was just going through me and we're still trying to find those things to fill those gaps you don't have the things that for for me, when I think about the, the, the gap, the holes, I wondered how it would, um, how it'd be handed down to my kids.
Speaker 2:You know you don't have that connection as your own self. How do you make that connection with somebody else? Especially, how do you make that connection?
Speaker 1:Well, I know there were people that didn't think that I would be able to be a parent.
Speaker 2:I know that yeah, but.
Speaker 1:I am a kick a parent.
Speaker 2:I am.
Speaker 1:I am and I put my kids first. Yeah, I did with my first two and I do with my three littles now and I swore everything that I do is for them and I swore that I would never be like the parent I had.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Well, you don't want, like I don't want my kids to to seek my attention.
Speaker 1:You know, I feel like if we have the connection, then they don't need that attention from somebody else. You know I don't want them to Right, I don't want them to seek for that mom outside Correct and you know I've been. I'm very familiar with reactive attachment disorder.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I'm very familiar with reactive attachment disorder and it is a thing it ends up as an adult. If it's not really taken care of and the attachment isn't taken care of as a young child, it can turn into borderline personality disorder and all these other disorders when they're older yeah, come out in all kinds of different ways. It is critical that attachment is formed as a child and I do know people that continually seek and seek and seek, you know, for that connection. I really feel for anybody who has never had those when I worked in the group home for abused kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I had one. I had one of them when he aged out. He aged out. What are you going to do? You got nowhere to go. You literally have your stuff on the front porch and it's bye. Yeah, there was nobody on the other side to pick him up. He ended up on my door because I had had him and a couple of the other kids that were in the shelter at my house for Christmas before, and it was, you know, approved and everything. We were allowed to do, that, in fact, other staff. We took some of the kids home because they had nowhere to go and so he knew where I lived Apparently. He remembered and I opened the door and there he was. So he's 18. He has nowhere else to live and he's sleeping on my couch, you know, for a couple of months, and so we helped figure it out for him.
Speaker 1:But you know, I mean, it's just so critical. What do you do with these kids that are like this, that become adults, and it doesn't end just because you turn 18. This is the end of this part of attention seeking versus connection seeking. I find it really interesting because, you know, I'm so thankful that we have moved past the times of if a child is acting out, that it is just a blanket attention-seeking behavior or that we move past that to the point where we've moved to. What is this connection-seeking behavior that we are looking at and how can we help resolve it within this child or this adult? Resolve it within this child or this adult?
Speaker 1:Because when I worked at the jail with the women, they were all adults, but one of the common denominators was that they did not have connection as a child and it turned into bigger problems as an adult. So let's continue this conversation and you will hear more next week. Thank you for listening to part one and we will see more next week. Thank you for listening to part one and we will see you next time.
