Real Talk with Tina and Ann
Tina and Ann met as journalists covering a capital murder trial, 15 years ago. Tina has been a tv and radio personality and has three children. Ann has a master's in counseling and has worked in the jail system, was a director of a battered woman's shelter/rape crisis center, worked as an assistant director at a school for children with autism, worked with abused kids and is currently raising her three children who have autism. She also is autistic and was told would not graduate high school, but as you can see, she has accomplished so much more. The duo share their stories of overcoming and interview people who are making it, despite what has happened. This is more than just two moms sharing their lives. This is two women who have overcome some of life's hardest obstacles. Join us every Wednesday as we go through life's journey together. There is purpose in the pain and hope in the journey.
Real Talk with Tina and Ann
When the one hurting you is in your own home: An interview with author Victoria Ellen Part 1
What if the person who vowed to love and protect you was the very one orchestrating your pain? Join us on Real Talk with Tina and Ann as Ann sits down with Victoria Ellen, the courageous author of "Painting in the Rain: A True Story of Trickery and Triumph." Victoria shares her chilling journey of surviving domestic abuse at the hands of her former husband, Daryl—a charming facade that masked a controlling and dark nature. Together, we unravel the complex web of deception often hiding behind religious facades and the societal misconceptions that enable it.
Victoria's story is a poignant reminder of the insidious nature of narcissistic grooming and manipulation. We explore how her ex-husband's sociopathic tendencies were adeptly cloaked under the guise of charm and religiosity, creating an environment ripe for control and emotional turmoil. As Victoria recounts her own susceptibility to Daryl's influence, our discussion highlights the critical importance of recognizing red flags and the subtle, often overlooked signs of an abuser who conceals their true intentions.
Through Victoria's testimony, we are inspired by her resilience and strength in escaping such a toxic environment. We delve into the intricacies of mental and emotional control, the pain of realizing abuse extends to one's child, and the crucial role of supportive friends in breaking free from the cycle of abuse. This episode is a powerful testament to the endurance of the human spirit in the face of adversity and the urgent need for awareness and support for victims of abuse.
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Anne and we have a very courageous guest today. Victoria Ellen, I've read your book and I was so upset for you and also thrilled with you and your kids throughout this entire book. You are so brave and you did everything you could to help your family. Domestic abuse is often ignored, as we see in your book. Child abuse is also one that so many look the other way, even when all the evidence is right in front of them. The voiceless become more silent. I was a director of a battered woman's shelter. I was abused. My kids have been abused and I adopted them and you know there was a rape crisis center attached to where I worked. Also, and your story very much resonates with me, you will be heard today on this show, so thank you so much for trusting us with your story.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thank you so much, anne, for having me Really really happy to be here.
Speaker 1:It's hard to put such a horrific story in writing, I'm sure, for everyone to see, because you are basically and even doing this podcast. I mean it's a reliving and a reliving and it has to take an extra amount of bravery. I'm sure to do it each and every time. You know this should be a movie. I got to the end and I was like this is a movie and I found myself saying one more chapter because I wanted to find out what happened and this story was so unbelievable. I just sat there most of the time just shaking my head saying are you kidding me? So we're going to talk about different kinds of domestic abuse and look at child abuse and the system. So you know, let's start at the beginning.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the title is Painting in the Rain. A True Story of Trickery and Trine.
Speaker 1:You were very young when you met Daryl. I was your future husband.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was.
Speaker 1:And we've all been there. You know, you look across the room at somebody and your heart kind of goes a little flutter and you're like, oh gosh, you know they're so cute and you like them and there's a connection. And people around you start saying you know, oh, you know, this guy isn't good for you. And your mom actually said that there was darkness all around him. I mean, what in the world? What were you thinking when she said that?
Speaker 2:It was wild. My mother has always had just this innate ability to it's like the sixth sense, you know, of her intuition. God rest her soul. Oh, your mom passed away. Okay, she's writing this book. She died of COVID, so I'm telling you, like you want to talk about trauma, I just got the gamut, you know, but it was so powerful, anne, and it was really. That's why I feel like it was such a spell that I was under because about him, but I didn't heed that advice just kind of shows you that deception is really strong and it just overtook me. And, you know, instead of, like, listening to her and leaning into people that love me, you know, I was really really taken by, like, like I say in the book, like this spell, and ended up not listening to her advice about the darkness that surrounded him.
Speaker 1:Well, I think most young people do that. You know our parents warn us and they're like what do they know? You know, I mean we all did that. And church can be deceiving because when you meet someone in a church and they're like singing God's praises and he's a good person because he just seems like such a good godly man.
Speaker 2:So some of the worst people on this- planet are hiding in the pews and they're at the altar Praying on people and it's the different pray. It's P-R-E-Y, not P? P-r-a-y. You know what I mean. And, um, I look at church kind of like an er right, all these sick people coming in and trying to get better, but you have to remember that like not everybody's on the same path as you, you know. So definitely the worst of the worst and you.
Speaker 1:That's where a lot of people who want to prey on people can go, because so many people are. They're broken. You know, I used to be one of the chaplain people at the jail for the women and I can tell you, I mean, they come in. They're so broken and they're so vulnerable and when you're in that kind of a state and you're in a church setting, somebody can really take you down very easily. It's scary.
Speaker 2:Well, and you consider the mental health disorders that we are up against with narcissistic personality disorder, the fact that you know we're dealing with sociopaths here.
Speaker 2:I mean, these people are very, very ill and they are extremely good at what they do, and so they know how to read people, and so if they think that you're weak, if they think that you're naive, if they think that you're a good person, they're going to take advantage of that and exploit your kindness and your compassion and empathy. They love to target you. You have this big red target on your back.
Speaker 1:And you were a young, innocent kid at the time. I mean you wanted badly to do the right thing so you weren't looking for bad. I mean you were afraid to disappoint and there were so many changes and tragedies in your young life, from abrupt moves city to country, christian school to public school and your mom almost died. I mean that was what happened.
Speaker 2:My mother was in a really horrible Jeep accident.
Speaker 2:She had just dropped me off, actually for school, and I was doing this carpool because it was so far to get to that private school and so we would carpool, all these ticks and we would go.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the parents would take us and she had just dropped me off and it was a super foggy morning and she ended up not seeing a car that was stopped for a school bus on the opposite side of the road and so the fog was just so bad and and she ended up flipping her Jeep multiple times and they found her hanging upside down by her seatbelt, dead, and she was out of body. After life experiences and it was, it was pretty wild and you know she saw the light, all the things. I think that's probably another podcast, another day. But when she did end up like coming back and breath, like came back into her body, there was a man there that had pulled her cover down from her seatbelt and was with her and they ended up care flighting her. So you know I was really young, saw her in ICU and just you know it was tragic, Very, very traumatic.
Speaker 1:And your dad almost died. So after your mom's, you know, a friend asked you how that affected you and you had not even thought about how it affected you. And in the book you say regarding all of this, that's enough to make anyone fear loneliness and abandonment. And I lost my dad when I was 11 years old, so I understand that fear of loneliness and abandonment and at a young age it can be so encompassing and can drain everything out of you. Do you think that it directed your life for a long time?
Speaker 2:I do, I really do. It's interesting because you know, at that moment you're so young you don't consider it. Then I ended up being really a young adult, meeting Daryl, and so I hadn't considered it then. But you know, as I look back on my life, you know the book was very cathartic and I do think that it did change me in a lot of ways. Oh sure, I mean really drastically. And then, you know, considering writing this book when my mom I actually found both my parents incapacitated, with COVID and I'm an only child, so they both ended up going, you know, into ICU in the hospital and my mother didn't make it. And so, you know, trying to like unpack all of this, like abandonment and being alone and being an only child, only grandchild, I mean, there's just so much there and I think that was one of the reasons and why I felt like God, like I can't stop now.
Speaker 2:I mean the whole reason why I started this was so that I could help other people not feel alone, and now I feel so much more alone. So I really want to make sure I try to bridge this gap with connection, and that vulnerability creates connection. I mean Brene Brown talks about that in her books. I truly believe that and I mean, look at you and I, we don't even know each other. We're not. We're getting to know each other today, but it's amazing how this trauma and just the alone, abandonment, almost feeling, does create that, that bridge with people who don't have, you know, don't have the connection previously.
Speaker 1:Right, and we weren't meant to be alone. So you know we were meant for connection. Yeah, it's hard when our parents go. I mean it really is. I mean, and you had such a close relationship with both of your parents, so you know I'm so sorry for your mom. As I continue to read your book, I noticed that you had a natural reaction to all of this feeling that in your life was out of control. And then you met Daryl in this church. So how would you have described him before doubt entered in?
Speaker 2:Oh, very charismatic, yeah, larger than life, personality, easy to like. You know, there's just some people my husband, he's easy to love, you know, it's just like, he's just a lovable guy. Daryl was easy to like. It was like, oh, he's just got this big personality and he was funny and he was very young and buff and attractive and it was like, wow, and I'm super sheltered, you know, raised in the living room there, and he was like wow, like, oh, this is a dream, right Out of this world. So, yeah, and you know, everybody seemed to like him. I mean when they would meet him. I mean, obviously, when you try to, when you look at my family and my friends and then connecting him with me, they didn't like that. But I mean when you just pull all those layers off and and you look at him alone. Yeah, it was just, you know, attractive, funny and a great big personality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he could work a room. There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 2:Yes, and he did in his 20s and his 30s and even into his 40s. I mean he was still working the room. I mean under all of the guises, right Under all.
Speaker 1:Right, I was so surprised he would even enter in, you know, to the courtroom. That we'll talk about way later, but I mean just smiling and just you know, hey, how's it going. I was just like, oh my gosh, who is this guy?
Speaker 2:It's wild. You know most people like your filter would kick in and you'd be like I'm not going to act like that, I've got to. You know we're here for a hearing and not him I mean he never.
Speaker 1:he never wore the shame or the blame or anything, never, ever.
Speaker 2:I don't think he even has the capacity to be really frank with you, and the reason I think that is because, like most of us are not the majority of population, we're not sociopaths, right? We? Have like empathy and compassion and we know how to read a room and you have social awareness and you know you just tread softly and he really didn't have that ability.
Speaker 1:If he did, he fought it, you know, tooth and nail, because he wasn't going to show it by any means. And another part of his personality is that he was so convincing. I mean, he used God often too, and I thought that that was horrible. He said to you that God told him that you were supposed to be his wife. So here is what seemed like this wonderful young man who was. You know, he seemed like it, at the same time putting very subtle clues out there to who he really was, the same time putting very subtle clues out there to who he really was. So you know, he and his family.
Speaker 2:They were a little off. Absolutely, they absolutely were. And my mom was calling these shots. It was wild. She was like, oh, this is happening, this is happening and I'm like no, I'm like in La La Land, I don't see any of it.
Speaker 2:When you think about your own mental health and you are in your own emotional well-being, it's funny I say this in the book and I often repeat it that I can tell where I was at mentally and emotionally in my well-being by the people that I was dating and so I would attract, you could attract people you know it was like a magnet that were also like not well, you know, masking it or covering it up and using God, no less, which I mean. I just feel like there's a special place for people that want to use God to prey on people. I can't believe that he was doing this for so long under the radar. And, to your point, utilizing God, I mean God will not be mocked. That's all I can say. So you know what I mean. His vengeance, he will have his vengeance.
Speaker 2:But for me personally, I was so naive and I was so emotionally just stunted that if and when someone like him says to me oh my God, you're supposed to be my wife. God told me, but you're supposed to be my wife. I mean, wow, like I was just like oh, this is wonderful, because I didn't. I I didn't know if anybody would ever love me because I had so many issues. You know what I mean. So I'm not good enough for anything. And this.
Speaker 1:Well, you thought that he would be hiding something. I mean, you know, when you're getting to know people, you're talking about your siblings, your parents, you're you know, you're telling all the things about your life, and he wasn't telling you those things. I mean, as you were asking him questions and he just kept denying and deflecting about different things that you would ask him about. So that said a lot about his personality too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that's something that I would give as just kind of a just a little nugget for people if they have a takeaway from today's show. You know, if you feel like there are red flags or people are hiding things, I mean there is no reason to hide birthdates, there's no reason to hide anniversaries, there's no reason to hide where you work. I mean these are normal things that, unless you're hiding something, it's normal conversation. Oh, what's your birthday? Oh, mine's June. Oh, my gosh, that's awesome. Mine's a June too. What day? Like you know, where'd you graduate? These types of things, those are normal questions and if people are hiding things, then there's a reason why they're hiding it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean we'll get into it, but he was a master at this. A master, you know. I always say that if there's an abuser in the room and there's somebody that's vulnerable, there could be a thousand people in there they will find that person. And you said that the lion doesn't go after the strongest gazelle, he goes after the one with the broken leg. That was me, you said. And you said you didn't realize that evil will seek you out and will set up a trap to destroy your life. I mean, what was happening?
Speaker 2:It's wild. I mean, I never thought that I was. I never thought much of myself, okay. So there's that. Yeah, we just all can save space for that, and we just all can save space for that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know a lot of people feel that way, but I feel like you have to believe in good and evil or my story just doesn't work.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, it's all through your book, yeah, and so.
Speaker 2:And it's very real. I think it is, I truly believe that it is. But I believe that you know the evil was waiting and there was a plan, just like I feel like you know God has a plan for all of our lives when we're born. I feel like there's a plan and a purpose for all of us and you can choose good or you can choose evil, but I feel like evil was very present.
Speaker 2:And now that I'm a stronger person, I know that my calling is really great and that I'm supposed to really be kind of networking and using my voice in a really, really big way. And so now it makes sense to realize like, oh, back then there was a plan to silence me, there was a plan to try to stop me and basically to abort my mission, silence me, there was a plan to try to stop me and basically to abort my mission. And that's really how I feel. Nobody ever changed my mind, just simply because I've been through 20 plus years of hell on earth with this man and now, like being able to see from the other side what was going on, really, you can't really deny that there was something at play here to destroy me.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite ways that he was described in the book was a narcissistic word salad and I was just like, oh my gosh, that is perfect. I actually wrote it down that is perfect.
Speaker 2:I actually wrote it down. You can't make sense of it. You're like what did they just say? You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the more you talked about him in the book, I put one word down on a piece of paper grooming. He was a master groomer. I went to Rainn's website, R-A-I-N-N. Grooming is a tool that abusers use to gain access to a potential victim, coerce them to agree to the abuse and reduce the risk of being caught. I've been groomed. I have been groomed by someone and you don't see it coming, and it's an absolute horrible thing to have happen to you. They're making you think that you are special, but they're gradually luring you into this world of horror 100%.
Speaker 2:That definition nailed it, anne. I mean I can't echo my sentiments more about how accurate that really is. And I was being groomed. As a matter of fact, all of his victims were being groomed.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, oh yeah, in a really scary way. So here you are with this man and it's like you're in a tornado, and then, all of a sudden, your relationship takes a much deeper turn because you guys are now permanently connected. So what happens?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I ended up getting pregnant with my son and in my mind I needed to make it right and I wasn't convinced that I should marry him. So over the course of those three trimesters, while I was pregnant, it was like I was with Daryl. I'd broken up with Daryl second trimester and then I was back with Daryl in the third trimester. So I'm starting to be able to see things and see clearly. But then he started all of the love bombing, sending me flowers and sending me gifts and how much he loved me and he wanted to be an amazing father and a wonderful husband. And all of the empty promises and the love bombing just overwhelmed me and I ended up getting married just a few short days before I was due moving to a new city, a new home, being married and a new mom all within a nice whirlwind of about 10 days.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I didn't realize it was 10 days. Oh my gosh, that's so much. I mean, you just described the cycle of violence and we used to talk I used to do trainings at the Battered Woman's Shelter for volunteers and we would put up the cycle of violence and that's exactly what would happen. I mean, they would be so wonderful, they would lure you in, and then all these things would start happening and maybe some abuse would happen. That was like wait what is, wait a second, and then they would come with all these oh I love you's and the roses and everything, and the honeymoon phase would last for a period of time and then it would all go again.
Speaker 2:That's it. And you know it's funny because in the moment it feels chivalrous, like, oh, wow, like you want me to quit my job because you want to take care of me so I don't have to work. Oh, that's so kind of you. No, it's so he can control you, so he can do everything you do control your money, control where you spend money, control when you leave the house, control every single moment of your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the control and manipulation were two words that you used often in the book. And here is this man that is so amazing to the world, but you are seeing him as someone who is quite scary old. But you are seeing him as someone who is quite scary so they can act so innocent, like what? What did I do and make you feel like you're crazy?
Speaker 2:Well, that's the gaslighting. So anytime you start questioning, then they completely flip the script and use what you just said the manipulation. What is wrong with you? Why are you acting like this? After all, I've done for you, I worked so you can stay at home with our baby, like you know, and it's gosh unbelievable really it really is, and his mom and dad were thrilled that you guys were getting married.
Speaker 1:I mean they belong together. I mean that family. They were really something else. But one of the things that I saw was that you were hoping constantly well, maybe when the baby is born this will happen. You know he'll finally be there for me and be there for us, and you know that type of thing. But it just kept getting worse and worse. And you gave an example. I could not believe this. It was your birthday, you had just had a C-section and what?
Speaker 2:He schedules a birthday trip I'm using air quotes for those of you who are listening For me and schedules a birthday weekend away. Now, mind you, my son was born the fourth day of January and my birthday is in February. Okay, I had a C-section after laboring for 18 hours, so I mean, it was just like horrendous. And he schedules a birthday trip at a ski lodge, away from my newborn and at a ski lodge. I mean, how much more selfish can you be, ann?
Speaker 1:I just read that and I just could not believe that he did that. I mean, I had to have a hysterectomy years ago and so it was kind of like a C-section, I would say back then, that's how they used to do it. And oh my gosh, there is no way. There's just no way. I can't believe that he did. He never thought of you guys. He never thought of anybody but himself. So, yeah, yeah, Well, he controlled every move of you guys and you had to stay at your parents' house where you basically were monitored 24-7. He was in control of where you went and he wouldn't let you go anywhere without him. Were you allowed to have a relationship with your family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I just want to make sure I clarify that I would have to stay at his parents' house.
Speaker 1:Yes, I thought I said that I'm sorry have to stay at his parents' house. Yes, I thought I said that I'm sorry that you stayed at his parents' house.
Speaker 2:His parents' house, and he did. He monitored my every move. I wasn't allowed to open the curtains. The blinds, I mean, had to be shut at all times. I wasn't allowed to leave the house without permission. Where do you need to go anyway? I mean, you don't have a job and you're supposed to be taking care of our newborn, so where do you need to go?
Speaker 1:You know if.
Speaker 2:I wanted to go to the grocery, it was like absolutely not. And that just continued to ratchet up over time. And then it's just, you know, the taking of my keys, hiding my not letting me go. It's just, I mean, so much control, oh my God, it was unbelievable. You're right. Yeah, every move, every single move, was controlled.
Speaker 1:You know, when a woman and I think he was starting to think, you know, suspect that you were going to leave and that was why he was doing that. And when somebody gets to the point where they're thinking that the men or you know, whoever is abusing the other person, is starting to up their game too. So I mean the moving of the keys and just starting to ask you you know, he always wanted to know where you were going and then he would be like, oh no, I'll go to the store instead of you. Or he would go away, say he was going away for two hours and come back in 15 minutes. I mean that always had to keep you on your toes.
Speaker 2:It does. It's like your nervous system is constantly on high alert because for one second you're like, oh my God, thank God he's leaving, I've got two hours of peace and I can just sit here and like, just try to breathe and like get myself together, you know, and try to make sense of like this crazy life that I'm living. And then him coming back in 15 minutes after he said he'd be gone two hours, it was like oh. Back in 15 minutes after he said he'd be gone two hours, it was like oh. So just to let you know, you're not in control of your life. You don't get to play in the next two hours. I say when you can rest. I say if you can rest, I say how long you'll rest. So yeah, you're constantly in a state of fight or flight.
Speaker 1:You know let's talk about this credit cards and the money and where this story goes with his need to impress.
Speaker 2:So Daryl was very consumed with anything that was materialistic, so he wanted and also perception. Let me just say that Right right could portray that he was successful and he drove an expensive car and we lived in a nice home and we had expensive clothing or whatever it was then it was. People would perceive me as successful and if people perceive you a certain way, then he could basically create this formula where if I look successful and I play the part of a successful person, then I'll attract more money and more relationships of people who have money and then I'll be at my disposal, have more access to funds so that I can utilize that to fund my lifestyle. And so he would drive our friends' cars, because he was really close with these people and he was young and, like I said, you know he just had this. You know forked tongue. You know he just could.
Speaker 2:He was so manipulative and he could just sway people into doing whatever he wanted. So he's driving Dodge Vipers and he's driving Hummers and he's driving these expensive like racing BMWs and all these cars that just cost an exorbitant amount of money. Meanwhile we can't even afford to buy our groceries, and so he would take my credit cards and buy groceries and pay the electric bill, and pay the water bill and buy clothing and whatever he wanted, and put it all on the credit cards. Because I actually had credit, because my mom taught me how to manage money when I was growing up and I had a savings account and a checkbook, and so he just wanted his name on everything.
Speaker 2:And of course we're married. I have to be submitted to my husband, and aren't you going to be a good wife? And don't you know what God's Word says about? A wife should submit to her husband. And so then he used the word to just beat me over the head and it was like well, this is what the Bible says, and if you're not a good Christian, you're not going to obey the Bible.
Speaker 1:And it's like oh, you know, in the battered women's shelter that was the word and the Christian women would come in and they felt so awful. They really believed that they were going against God and it was beat into them not just by the husband but also by the church, because they needed to listen to him and do what the husband said.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right, and you got to think about how we program our minds right. Repetition over and over, and, over and, over and over again. You're being told that you are going against God, not going against man, because this person is supposed to be like, operating like with the, you know, with God as his head. So if he's submitted to God and you're submitted to him, then, oh my gosh, you don't want to go against God. And it's such a manipulation of what the Bible even is. So if you don't know anything about the Bible, then you would be like who would want to have anything to do with God anyway, because this is like a horrible life.
Speaker 2:But the problem is none of it was actually used correctly. It was all manipulation and control for selfish gains so that they can get what they want, which is more control and being able to just have people as pawns, and so it was a sick vicious cycle that I was stuck in and then finally being able to come out of that and you start to slowly come out of that fog. You are under the spell and you can't even think clearly because you have been brainwashed. It's a cult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really is. And plus, he was beating you down all the time. So I mean your mental and emotional state was so low. He wouldn't even let you leave the house without sweats, and I mean with sweats on or something like that. I mean you had to look perfect at all times, and if you didn't, he would put you down, and then he wouldn't even let you cry. So you had this thing where, I mean, he said that you were actually pitiful and he put you down if you had emotion.
Speaker 2:Correct, and that's the other thing. They want to completely desensitize you and then berate you when you are down. And you're exactly right. When you're constantly being told you know that you're not good enough and you're not skinny enough and you're not pretty enough. And you know, if you don't have on makeup, then you're not pretty, and if your hair's up you don't really look great because you don't really have a very strong jawline to be able to wear your hair up. You should always wear your hair down and just like those little digs constantly over and over. And then you know, if you read the book, you'll understand he was really big into weightlifting and so it was all about the physique and so it wasn't just the money, it was like the strong presence of him being like I'm strong, I'm powerful, I've got this buff body. Look how put together I am and everybody wants me. You know it's just constant and you can't even come up for air. You're literally drowning all the time.
Speaker 1:And he also you kind of mentioned this a little bit ago. I mean, he kept you literally in the dark, literally, and you even got in trouble for like lifting up the blinds. You know, I don't know what that was. Even at his parents' house they were that way.
Speaker 2:What are you doing in your house that you can't open the blinds, that you can't have the drapes open on the windows or that you can't have the windows open?
Speaker 1:Right, right right.
Speaker 2:What are you doing in there? I mean, it's the wildest thing. It's so funny. We just built a house. It's a year ago this month. I don't have any drapes on. I mean, this is my office. There aren't drapes. Even in here, in our living room, there are no drapes. There are no blinds. Front door big big door. I'm like let the light in no more darkness.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and along with that, we touched on this, too, a little bit. But the crazy making that he put into you with this narcissism. This really hit me. When, for anybody who's been abused, you say how scary it is to realize that you are living with someone you don't even know and how they were able to lie to everyone and have this secret life which you still didn't know at this time.
Speaker 1:But the gaslighting and living with a stranger who you were married to, that you don't even know at all and you say Daryl would be gaslighting you, and then you talk about how Daryl would be physically restraining you. He physically restrained you and I found it interesting that he turned it around on you and he's like I'm trying to protect you from hurting yourself. That is terrifying how someone can mess with your mind so much and be like wait, I'm helping you, but I'll tell you I loved how you said you're not protecting me, you're controlling me. I was like, yeah, you go, you know, but he comes back with this is I mean? This was just crazy. There is this thing that he said. He turned it back on you and said that he was worried about your mental state.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and this is just another play in the playbook of the narcissist. They try to make you think you're crazy. They switch everything up on you constantly and then they do question your mental health. Maybe you should, you know, really examine your heart and your mind, because a good Christian woman would never act like this. She would never question. And you know, I was already programmed for the good girl, right. I was already like all I ever wanted to do was to honor God with my life. I just wanted to be a good person. I just wanted to be a good person. I just wanted to be a good girl. So when you've already got that in your mind, as a good girl submits, a good girl does what she's told. A good girl is a people pleaser. A good girl doesn't go against her husband, she honors her husband and she submits. I mean you've already got all this programming and so you do feel like you're going crazy.
Speaker 1:And you wore the shame. I mean, you really felt like you were standing before God with all this shame.
Speaker 2:You know it's interesting. Shame beat the hell out of me. I say that all the time. It really did. And if you don't know what shame is, it's basically like this feeling where you really can't even lift your head. You walk where you feel like this heaviness is on you. It's like this heavy cape and you're carrying this burden and your head is just constantly down because you don't feel like you're good enough and you don't feel like you're smart enough and you don't feel like you qualify for anything because of all these things that you haven't done right, and that's your track record, and your track record sucks. And so what are you going to do now? You've left your entire family to run off with this man who ends up being a loser and an abuser, and so now what are you going to do? You can't go back, so shame is just eating me alive.
Speaker 1:Right Gosh, I felt so bad for you. I just wanted to come into those pages and be like you're fine. I mean, I just wanted to like give you a hug. I felt so awful for all the shame and he felt none, by the way. So there was that. So I want to touch a little bit more. I mean, this is harder. The abuse continued and the hardest thing in our lives as a parent is to realize that now your child is being hurt. You started suspecting that your son at this time was being hurt. You started seeing behaviors with your child that made you really believe this.
Speaker 2:Yes, I did.
Speaker 2:And you know, all through being married to Daryl, like I said, the Bible was the be-all and end-all, and so in his mind, that scripture that says spare the rod, spoil the child, was constant.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, ryland was so young and at that time I didn't know what was going on with Ryland, but Ryland was constantly crying, constantly screaming, inconsolable at all times and could not regulate ever, and so he, just he was a mess all the time and I didn't know what I didn't know. Now, looking back, I know that he was being abused sexually and physically, emotionally, mentally, everything he endured, but we didn't know what was wrong with him and he was constantly crying. And so Daryl's response to that is well, you know, you've got to whip him. And so he would leave bruises on him because he had whipped him so hard. And I mean we're talking about a one-year-old, he was still in diapers. I mean there's no reason why he would have needed to be, you know, no, no, no. But you can't try to use logic or reason with the narcissist because you're going to lose that game every single day.
Speaker 2:And then the constant, with me getting in the middle of him and Ryland and trying to stop that and, of course, creating a horrible son and my son's growing up in this horrible, violent life and me just trying at that point to just be like, hey, don't you have somewhere to go? Like, yeah, go, that's fine, we're here. And then just really just trying at that point to just be like, hey, don't you have somewhere to go? Like, yeah, go, that's fine, we're here. And then just really just trying to make him continue to be gone because I didn't want him around, because I didn't want him to abuse us while he was there. So, yeah, it was horrific, but the behavior that he was displaying ultimately started leading me to believe that he was also being sexually abused.
Speaker 1:His mom made a reference that gave me the chills. She said that you could hide the abuse, that things could be happening and nobody see it.
Speaker 2:Yep'll tell you, looking back on all of that writing this book, it was one of the farthest chapters I had to get through and, to be really honest with you, oh I I bet um, and janice heisel is my co-author.
Speaker 2:I actually hired her initially. It was like as a ghost writer, um, but we ended up. Can you imagine telling your life story to someone over the course of a year and a half? I mean, you become really close and we became very good friends and I tasked her with some things like this stuff, because I couldn't go through all of the files again and again and again and again to pull up, like all the documentation for Asian children's services, a lot of those things, and even this question about his mother, even you know, basically forewarning me, and it was like she was saying like, oh, this could happen, so you have to be so careful. That's why we don't let anybody else watch our kids. No, the reason why you don't let other people watch your kids is because you're abusing them, and then if other people were to see them, then they would know that they were being abused. So very sick, very sick, and I mean total, total perpetrator.
Speaker 2:So what do?
Speaker 1:you do? Do you believe that she had knowledge of everything that was happening?
Speaker 2:I do. That's my belief. There's no way to prove that Right. I do believe she did.
Speaker 1:It almost felt in those statements that she said that she was a part of it.
Speaker 2:Oh, I believe. Oh, she was, she was, she wasn't, yeah, she wasn't yeah. And you know what's interesting, I was scared to death because I had an attorney that I hired to go through the book, because when you are involved with this many court cases and for this extended period of time, it's hard, because I mean, you know this Anne having the battered women's shelter, but you really have to be careful what you say because of you know a declamation lawsuit or what he brought against you. She is deceased, so I don't have to worry about any of that, but she was absolutely one of the named abusers and so you know it's very difficult because this person that's saying, hey, you need to keep your kids safe, is actually the person that's preying on your child.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, that's so scary.
Speaker 2:So scary.
Speaker 1:And it's the people who are close to your child who is hurting them. So how messed up is that, as a kid, who's hurting them? So how messed up is that, as a kid? The people that are supposed to be protecting you when they're you know, when they're watching him are the ones who are actually hurting him.
Speaker 2:Well, and I've learned through therapy over the years, and this is an excellent point. I was so confused because I couldn't understand why my son would say that he missed his job, like when he wasn't around.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I was so completely confused because I thought you know that you're being abused by him and all of these people in this family and you miss them. But it's in our DNA, right, it's in our person to want to be connected to our parents. We want to be loved by our parents. We miss our parents. I mean, there's things that people have endured from their parents that are just unspeakable, but they still miss them because they miss what they want to have with that person.
Speaker 2:And that's what's so perverse about all of it, because he did miss his dad, even though his dad was a perpetrator and an abuser.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's a real thing that happens to a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure why that happens, but I think when people hurt us, it hurts us so deeply in our emotions are so connected and it like, if there's hate, there's love, if there's, you know, and I think that it just kind of triggers all of that within us and it creates some kind of a connection that's definitely unhealthy 100%.
Speaker 2:There's soul ties there, for sure.
Speaker 1:Now, in a point in your book you start talking about friends who started to see things. What did you feel about? I think it was Meredith who noticed the bruises, and then you also had somebody that offered to marry you. I mean, they wanted to rescue you. So you had friends who really wanted to help.
Speaker 2:I really did. I had a great group of friends that I don't know. I still feel like, wow, I'm so blessed to have people like that in my life that loved me enough to. I mean, when I was pregnant with Ryland and I was going through that phase of I don't know if I should marry him or not, and my friend was like oh my gosh, like I would love to marry you, like I would take care of you and this baby, like absolutely. And Meredith, she was so close to me. When I did finally go back to work she was helping with Ryland when I was gone and she did see the bruises on Ryland and questioned me about it. So then it was like it's almost like I don't know how to say this but when you are the person who is living such a secret and a lie and you're trying to control what other people know about you and your, or once someone knows, it's almost like a relief. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:No sure.
Speaker 2:Pressure cooker and you know, the top or the steam starts letting the steam off. It's kind of like it's starting to release some of that, because you don't have to bottle all that up inside of me. We're like, oh my God, somebody else knows. And they think it's crazy too, and they know it's wrong too, and I'm not losing my mind, I'm not the crazy one. There's somebody crazy here, but it's not me, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it starts validating what you're seeing, because you really do feel crazy at that point because everything that's happening you're feeling isn't really happening, because they're telling you. He's telling you it's not really happening really happening because they're telling you.
Speaker 2:he's telling you it's not really happening. So that's his own narrative. He's writing the story, you know, writing what he wants you to believe. Do you think he believed his lies? I think he got to a point where he did I do.
Speaker 1:Okay, I really wondered that because he got to so convincing I mean, he was always convincing, but he included so many different people in this like web of lies I started wondering if he actually believed him.
Speaker 2:I think he did. I mean, nobody will ever know, but I believe that he started just going down that trail of this really is reality, even though he was creating it as he went of this really is reality, even though he was creating it as he went.
Speaker 1:I mean, even his hairdresser was involved in a way, because I mean he even lied that his hair was straight.
Speaker 2:Don't even think you'd need to lie about Anne, like it's so wild. That's why he would lie, even if it served him better to tell the truth, I mean yeah, that's what a narcissist is, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I started looking at one of the worst times under his control with you no electricity, no water.
Speaker 2:Nope and electric. The garage door won't go up because they can't get in.
Speaker 1:We don't have electric oh my gosh, you couldn't even bathe your son nope, I had to go to his parents house again.
Speaker 2:Convenient, because no one else could know that we didn't have electric or water right, right.
Speaker 1:I just don't understand. I mean, he would do something so outlandish too, and one of the things that he would get you for is because you would say a swear word. You know, I mean he did something so crazy and then turn it on you and say, but look at you. You swore. I mean you're a horrible person, because you said hell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, because you said hell. Yeah, that's right. It's the self-righteousness of the narcissist that really is so unreal, like I feel like that's just part of. They have to keep this up, keep this going, and they have to find anything and everything that you do to try to make you look, look bad, because otherwise you're going to be on to them and so they have to beat you down.
Speaker 1:Okay. It reaches a point in the story where your son comes over and hugs you, and I think that something happened inside of you when that happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was at that time, I believe, pregnant with Mercedes, my daughter.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:It was just this moment where I couldn't believe that I'm a two-year-old who's consoling me because I'm so emotional and I didn't want him to grow up with such dysfunction Right and in my mind. I had no idea how I was going to escape, couldn't even begin to put the pieces together of a strategy or a plan. I just knew I'm going to get out of here and I'm not going to make him endure this anymore. This was prior. I just want to clarify this is prior to knowing about the sexual abuse and I did not know. You know what? Oh, absolutely. So when that started coming out, then, you know, it kind of ratcheted up the time, the timeframe for me to be able to escape.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean from the beginning of the story all the way through to the end. It was a completely different story. I mean watching you grow and the strength and the ability to really fight for yourself and your family was such a beautiful woven story within the story.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:One of the things that happened is you ended up with a book in your hand. If I remember right Dr Wagner, I think it was and what happened there?
Speaker 2:the book to read and it was called Murdered Heiress Living Witness, and he endured such abuse. People were trying to kill her. She was very, very, very wealthy and those that were closest to her. They tried to murder her and she escaped. And it's a crazy story, almost like mine. You know, fact is stranger than fiction. Hollywood can't write stuff like this.
Speaker 2:And I felt like, oh my God, this woman who was electrocuted, left for dead, I mean jumped out of a hospital, you know window, and I mean it was the wildest story I'd ever read. And I thought, oh my God, if she could get through that, I can get through this, I am going through this. And it was literally a turning point. So I'm glad you brought that up, ann, because for me I almost felt like I was living the life that he was living. He wasn't who he said he was, who he was portraying to be. He was the first one of me to believe he was did not exist. That person was just a character in one of his plays, like he really was a different person. And so I had this like inner struggle, because I was pretending to him that I was still all in, but in the back of my mind. I was plotting my escape for my son and I and my unborn baby.
Speaker 2:I was pregnant at the time, so it was like I'm living a duplicitous life, like I'm pretending, like I'm all in, but I'm really, I'm checked out, I'm leaving, I just don't know how or when, but I'm getting out of here. So I started, and I started, you know, vacillating, because it was like is this wrong of me? Am I being deceptive? Am I being you know um untrue? Or you know untrue, or, you know, am I lying somehow? And then I thought, no, I'm protecting myself and my child and my unborn child. So I had this inner struggle, this battle, and I started gaining strength. I started really getting a little bit stronger every single day, and that was reading that book helped me get to that point.
Speaker 1:You could feel your strength and it was really empowering. You had a meeting. You set up a meeting with a pastor because you guys needed money, and that I loved it. If you could talk a little bit about that. I mean, I'm sure he didn't even want to go, if you could talk a little bit about that. I mean, I'm sure he didn't even want to go, but you scheduled the meeting. He ends up going and this pastor lady puts him in his place a little bit, and so do you.
Speaker 2:It was actually really liberating, ann, I bet, because, for you know, almost like two years, two and a half years, I had been living, you know, alive, like everything's fine, and now this stack of cards, this house of cards, is starting to slowly fall apart. And so when I went to her, I knew that she was a no-nonsense lady and I knew that he was, yeah, and I knew that he was so worried about what she thought that if he didn't show up for the meeting, that it was going to make him look bad.
Speaker 2:And remember it's all about appearances, so he doesn't want to look bad so he's so up for the meeting and yeah, basically she just called him out, she called him on the carpet, on everything. She's like you know, you're not being a good husband, you're not being a good father, you're not even paying the bills, You're not taking care of your household. Like, yeah, you're supposed to be doing all of these things, you're not doing any of it. Like you need to get it together. And I mean it was for me. I was just like yes, like I've been saying this. He's not listening.
Speaker 1:And you used I think it was you who used the scripture against him. Yeah, Is that?
Speaker 2:correct. Yeah, I did. I mean, you know it's funny, because I knew what the Bible said too, even though it had been used to manipulate me. I know what truth is, and it's like well, you're supposed to be the head of your house and the priest of your home. That's what the Bible says. So why aren't you taking care of your family and why aren't you you?
Speaker 1:know what I mean. The husband is supposed to love his wife the way Christ loved the church.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right and I did, and that's what the scripture says. I mean it doesn't mean you're wife, like Christ, loved the church. But well, hello, god gave this life for the church, so it's like you're not giving up anything. Everything's about you.
Speaker 1:It really was. It really was. And he was so good about keeping everything under the radar too. I mean, that was another part of it. You say at one point in the book that he never threatened you, he never struck you and he was doing everything to make you look like you were the crazy one. So I mean, even the police got involved and his friends show up and I just was like what? And every time everybody believed him and it made you out to be crazy. And he actually said that he didn't feel safe, handing your son over to you.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what he said. It's wild. I mean you feel like you're living in the twilight zone. I mean you really do. You're like is anybody here? Like? Is everybody in my world? Like against me? Like what is happening? I mean police show up and it's his friends that are the police officers that show up, you know. So you can't even call the police and get help.
Speaker 1:I didn't know. I was just like what? So how did you finally leave him?
