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Real Talk with Tina and Ann
Tina and Ann met as journalists covering a capital murder trial, 15 years ago. Tina has been a tv and radio personality and has three children. Ann has a master's in counseling and has worked in the jail system, was a director of a battered woman's shelter/rape crisis center, worked as an assistant director at a school for children with autism, worked with abused kids and is currently raising her three children who have autism. She also is autistic and was told would not graduate high school, but as you can see, she has accomplished so much more. The duo share their stories of overcoming and interview people who are making it, despite what has happened. This is more than just two moms sharing their lives. This is two women who have overcome some of life's hardest obstacles. Join us every Wednesday as we go through life's journey together. There is purpose in the pain and hope in the journey.
Real Talk with Tina and Ann
Navy SEAL to Social Warrior: Tom LaGrave's Mission for Youth
Tom LaGrave shares his remarkable journey from Navy SEAL to licensed clinical social worker, revealing how personal struggle and recovery led him to create Honor Bound Academy, a transformative program for youth transitioning to adulthood. Through his 35 years of experience working with adolescents, Tom has developed a powerful approach that teaches resilience, accountability, and personal responsibility while helping young people discover their purpose.
• Navy SEAL training taught Tom to "never quit" – a principle he's applied throughout life's challenges
• Hitting rock bottom with addiction after military discharge forced him to rebuild his life through recovery
• Working with youth in recovery settings showed Tom how young people could help him reconnect with emotions
• The Honor Bound Academy creates a modern rite of passage for 18-20 year olds through a 365-day live-in program
• Deliberately creating opportunities for failure teaches participants how to overcome challenges
• Building brotherhood and accountability through team experiences modeled after special forces training
• Using nature's elements (fire, earth, air, water) as healing tools and teachers
• Forgiveness, especially self-forgiveness, is essential to moving forward
• Today's societal division requires sacrifice from older generations to support youth
• Finding purpose through helping others creates healing for both parties
Visit thehonorboundacademy.org to learn more about Tom's program and his book "Special Welfare Social Warfare."
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Anne. Today we're joined by Tom LaGrave, a former Navy SEAL turned licensed clinical social worker with over 35 years of experience in biological, psychological and social assessment. After overcoming personal struggles and completing a recovery program, thomas dedicated his life to helping others in the social work profession. He helped many populations, but his experience with adolescence led him to his personal mission, as he helps and advocates for youth transitioning to adulthood. He is the author of Special Welfare Social Warfare, a powerful book addressing the fear and anxiety gripping our nation. In it, thomas speaks to young people, offering a program to inspire resilience and hope during challenging times. I am so glad to explore your incredible journey and vision for empowering the next generation. This is very interesting to me. Having worked in the helping profession as well and having degrees in the field, I very much appreciate what you are doing.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, it's a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm very excited to have you on, but first of all let's talk more about your title because that was different for me.
Speaker 2:Why?
Speaker 1:special welfare, social warfare, if we do not create a rebalancing of the dynamic of those that have and have not. We're were embedded in the Special Operations Command, working alongside Navy SEALs, army Rangers and other elite forces. You had so many chapters in your life, is what I like to say. What a purposeful road you have traveled. What lessons did you learn along the way that brought you to writing this much needed book and wanting to create this program Honor Bound Society to help today's youth transition into adulthood?
Speaker 2:You know what? What I learned from my military career is that you never quit, you never give up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The origin of basic underwater demolition. Seal training is a program where you're being challenged to the umpteenth degree, and the easiest thing that you can do in training is quit. The opportunity is in the form of a bell and if, at any time, at any moment, you wish to quit, you go up to that bell, you ring it, you take a helmet that you wear everywhere, put it down on the ground and you're gone. And it was that that I took from that moment to where I sit today in understanding.
Speaker 2:Life is challenging, life is difficult, but you, just you, do not give up, you do not quit, you persevere.
Speaker 1:You know I've always taken life that way. I have been hit over the head, knocked down, laid on the ground, not feeling like I can't get up, and I just never saw that option. I figured it out every single time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the thing with it is is if you do not have that internal nexus or you were not raised in an environment that that was supported was supported, it's a really difficult thing to have missing in a tool belt that in life is going to challenge us at every turn. So that component is critical to my work with youth and actually anybody that I interact with from my private practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to ask you how it has driven you forward in your life and in your work.
Speaker 2:My military career started magnificently and ended horribly. Nine years after my completion, I ended up being discharged for drug use, and it was at a time where I was discharged and sent out into the civilian world that I had never experienced, because I entered the military at 19. And I was lost, confused and incredibly addicted to alcohol and drugs and did not know where I was going to find a way to survive. And what I came down to was you always go home. I went home. My parents said you know what? You can't come here unless you're going to address your issue with drugs and alcohol. So I entered into a recovery facility and life started anew. Life-changing experience where, instead of not giving up, not quitting, I had to learn how to reverse it and say that I can no longer use drugs or alcohol. I have to quit using them. So it was I had that insight and I just reversed the polarity of understanding.
Speaker 1:You know you spent your life switching gears all the time. You know you had many pivot times in your life and at 40, you know, you got your degree. Is that correct? Yes, and then you were close to 50, I think, or around 50, when you got your social work license and you went for the master's degree and everything. I mean, you went a completely different direction and I think that that's really an important lesson for many of us, because we think that this is the way we're supposed to go. You know, and you know God or who you call a power greater than yourself. Sometimes it's just they're leading us in a different direction and we have to be willing to go that route.
Speaker 2:It's called my will and the will of power greater than myself, and which are you going to follow.
Speaker 1:It might not go well if you just keep saying no, I'm going my way.
Speaker 2:All of it came about because of my inability to understand how to live life.
Speaker 2:I did a 90-day recovery facility and that broke the physical addiction, but I didn't know how to live life and what I came up with is I needed to put myself in the environment where I could see what was in my youth that I no longer could see or feel to better understand.
Speaker 2:So I started working with youth. I took a job at an adolescent recovery facility and I followed up with a boys and girls club and because of what those young people did for me at that time, I committed myself to giving back to that generation not that those individuals, but that generation of youth that made life for me livable again. So that was the origin of how that all came about and I found that I had a talent. Kids responded to me and they shared things with me, and the reason that I went to get the education was I did not want to have a youth ask me a question that I didn't have an answer or didn't know how to find the answer. So I went and bachelor's, master's license and board certification, all because I don't want to have not have an answer for an individual that comes to me in a moment of crisis.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's really an amazing trait for you to be that open. And, if I can say this, you know, when I was getting ready to do this podcast with you, I really felt like I was going to come across this really tough character. That was like, you know, hey, you know, and be intimidating in a way, but you are so soft-spoken and you have the kind of spirit that is very attractive to, I would say, youth. You would be very welcoming to talk to. Whereas you know, I watch a show called Special Forces. Sometimes I don't know if you've seen that show where they're in your face to get you to change.
Speaker 2:And you don't seem that way at all. You know what? That goes back to the job that I did within Special Forces. I was a hospital corpsman, so there was a medical aspect. That that's what my job was.
Speaker 2:Within the context and from that perspective, you cannot come across harshly, especially when somebody is wounded and on the ground and you are what makes the difference between life and death. I'm here to look at and bring the tools and talents that I have to offer in a moment of crisis that others are experiencing. So, yeah, to come across as bold and in your face I have that capacity. I can do that, but I prefer this that you know what? There's a humility to it. I was a Navy SEAL who ended up destroying his career and then was able to put life back together again, looking at from the physical and understanding that the change came from understanding emotion and spirituality, and that was a very difficult task for me, but in the end, it was my humility of saying I don't know, help me. That actually made the difference of how my life now is.
Speaker 1:That's so. I've been in treatment myself, yeah, and it's that humbling piece, that brokenness piece, that being willing to lay it all out on the table and say I need help, and not think that you know all the answers. I used to be in the jails where I was one of the chaplains with the women, the women that were really willing to change and put it all out. There were the ones that were crying and willing to be broken and willing to be as honest as possible, and you even talk about that and we'll get to that more later but you talk about how important it is to be truthful and that is one of the biggest ways to move forward.
Speaker 2:Absolutely the humility of truth. I don't have all the answers and I came to find in the spiritual domain if you bring in negative, the world's going to bring back to you that same negative, and so the saying is that a lie changes all the time and the truth never does. And I don't have to figure out what I said if I spoke the truth.
Speaker 1:Right. It takes a lot less energy to be able to just tell the truth from the very beginning and, honestly, you can't have true relationships with people on lies.
Speaker 2:Especially with kids. Kid catches you on a lie, you're done.
Speaker 1:Now, where was the turning point in your life where you said you know what, from being the person that's in recovery to being the person who wants to help others and help, you know help change people's lives, especially the adolescents that have helped change you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, see, the thing with it is my military career required shutting down of emotion because you're required to do a job, and that is in war, to take life and to be able to pull a trigger and take the life of another human being. You have to. The military is really good at at tamping down that so that you do not hesitate. And the issue with recovery and living life in a society it requires you to feel. And from a male perspective, the last thing I want to do is I don't want to feel. Emotions are something that I prefer not experiencing. Cold and calculating works for me. Hold and calculating works for me. But if you're going to enter into the world and you find yourself an addict, alcoholic, you're going to have to get in touch with those emotions and my inability to do that and in recovery, saying that you have to go back to your youth, that the problems that you see, that you make choices by, began in your youth, and so not being able to feel, not being able to remember, put me into an environment that I was going to use again because I couldn't figure it out. So, again, I decided to put myself in the environment of youth that were experiencing what I experienced at that age that I could not remember. And so adolescent recovery was 13 to 17.
Speaker 2:And I saw these kids be so powerful in their ability to get real, to share the damage, to express and be vulnerable. I'm working there as an overnight counselor, I'm watching and, in recovery, I am not doing what I'm watching these kids do and I'm feeling ashamed and I'm feeling like a fake because I'm watching kids come to terms with it and I can't do that. And so that grace that they gave me made all the difference in how I see life. I am taking care of my intelligence, my ability to work, to put a roof over my head, all those things I have the ability to do.
Speaker 2:What else is it that I have that I can share, because in sharing it it comes back in dividends. I don't look to have you tell me how great I was because I helped you. As a matter of fact, I don't even want to know that. I want to do what I do and then move on and leave you to see that you had that talent and ability in you and all that I did was help you see it within yourself. So that's answering the question in a long way around as to why I went working with youth, and then what I got from them, and then what I have decided to have my life mean in giving back. That's the circle there.
Speaker 1:One of the best things I was ever told when I was living in my self destructive behaviors was to get outside of myself and help others, and I can tell you that was the best advice I've ever received, because it worked and I went into the helping profession and my behaviors that I was in the middle of they gradually just went away because I was surrounding myself more and more with the positive and my purpose was different, my outlook was different and I just wanted to help other people that were getting ready or were in the same life that I had been in, and I wanted to keep them from making the same mistakes that I had done. It's a scary world out there and I think that we can always use the things that we have been through in order to help other people, and I think that is our purpose.
Speaker 2:It again is a choice, and it was a choice that I didn't have any trouble making Everything you just explained ditto, I see, as you said said so that is really the driving factor is to help another human being in distress. Does something for both human beings. They get something and I guess, and regardless of how I'm treated, I'm still going to treat you with dignity, because all that I know is, if I match you, then I'm no better than you.
Speaker 2:If I offer you a counter of what you are. It's going to hopefully give you pause to think about it, and for me it comes back in having a good day. As simple as that.
Speaker 1:It changes the whole dynamics of the relationship too, because I think that people you know I have a friend of mine that a lot of the people are not treating her very well and we've talked about how to handle that and I think lots of times when people do that, that they're just waiting for this fight. But if you come back to them with kindness, it kind of like throws them off and it's just like wait a second, I was waiting for you to be mean back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the part that gives pause, because I am not going to respond to you in kind, and it took a long time to be able to get that. Again, we go back to those emotions. As a male, I I don't want to. I have come to understand that they are a saving grace because I, if I go to anger and resentment, I end up um in a place that I could do more harm to myself, let alone an individual. So I continually, over and over the years, embrace the emotions to today, where they are not as difficult as they once were. They're still a pain, but life, as I know it, is what it is, because of my choice to pursue, what it is that emotions represent and how they are there to serve us. And that was a lesson of a lifetime.
Speaker 1:You have a way about you that I really think that you can reach a lot of young people. You've lived it and you're also willing to listen to them and meet them where they are, which I think is extremely important, and I always say that we say that all the time on the podcast that we need to meet people where they are, because you can't help them grow if you don't do that. You know we all had a difficult time transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I, too, found myself in a world that was much bigger than myself, and it got me in a lot of trouble. I always say that I'm blessed to be alive, but with you, it brought you into the helping profession as we're talking about, as I did as well, and I commend you for transforming your pain into healing and using it to make a positive impact on others. Tell us more about this 365-day live-in program designed to push participants to their limits while guiding them toward self-discovery and purpose.
Speaker 2:This is Honorbound Academy. This is the nonprofit that I created. Over the years of working with youth, I came to understand the component that was missing. I wrote in the book Adolescent to Adulthood a guidebook, and I told the story of my adolescence to adulthood, and I've been working with youth now for the past 35 years. I have seen three generations transition from adolescence to adulthood and I'm seeing things that I had in my youth that are no longer here, oh sure.
Speaker 2:So what it came down to is Honorbound Academy is a rite of passage, and that is ancient. We all have had those in place through the eons, through the millennia. It's how it, you know, when we were hunter gatherers, you took. Youth at that time, were taken from their mother, if and this is male, um, and then they were put with the elders, and the elders didn't tell them what they wanted them to do. The elders showed them through action what was required of them, and it's that rite of passage that I'm not seeing today, having an opportunity for our youth to be challenged, to see that it's not easy to understand that you are responsible for your own self. An excuse as to why you did a thing is an excuse, and Honor Bound Academy teaches to be honorable, to be honorable men, not only with your peers, but with your family and with anyone that you come across. You're taught the reason why you should be honorable, and in a year there's a curriculum, there's phases, there's nature.
Speaker 2:There's one component that is missing more than any and that is failure, the opportunity to learn from your failures. You look at my resume all those successes that's meaningless to me. What means something to me is the negative things that I had to overcome to create that. I am a product of my failures, not my success. Giving a youth that and in that you create the scenarios where they're put into a situation and they're going to fail. Because I'm going to make sure they're going to fail and it's not because I want them to, I'm getting off on their failure. I need them to see, in failing, how you overcome that, how you pick yourself back up, how you move on, how you understand that is a right that you have and understand that anybody that you're looking at, every human being, fails, so it's okay when you do it, and that educational component is. The underlying critical piece is to show them from failure how to be successful.
Speaker 1:That is so beautiful. You probably couldn't tell, but I actually even teared up when you said that, because it hit me right where I have lived and I cannot tell you how many lessons I have learned along the way from my failures. And you know successes are, they're a moment, they're like a blip, they're like, yay, I won. And then you move on and it's like not even that big of a deal compared to having to work through things. And it's the, it's the journey, the struggle, the getting over those hurdles, it's the. You know, and I don't like things handed to me either. I want to be able to earn it.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And, and that's what you're talking about it's not that you know you win a prize because you're breathing Yay, you know you're doing great. Everybody wins, and that's not the way it should be. Everybody needs to earn it, yes, and it's not enough Now.
Speaker 2:From birth, especially the first couple of years, from birth, especially the first couple of years, a baby is not talking, doesn't understand that, but maybe is watching and they are seeing. And if you think that those years don't matter, if something goes wrong in those years, you're going to spend a lifetime in distress. That's why childhood is so important, at the very beginning. And I would offer too, when you go, when your kids go from adolescence to, or they go from preteen to teen and adolescence, that huge thing, right there is the kids that I've worked with all they don't want me to tell them they're watching me, to have them. Show them that they watch and yes, you can say, until you're blue in the face, do this do that.
Speaker 2:They're watching you. Cause when you say, do this, do that, doing this and doing that, then the kids know and that was the household I grew up in my father was do as I say, not as I do. You know that contradiction was. Well, why should I have to do that when you don't? And there's your conflict built in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and our generation, we definitely grew up like that, you know, we were the quiet ones in the room grew up like that, you know, we were the quiet ones in the room. The kids had to do what their parents told them to do. We had to, you know, cater to our parents and they really could do whatever. You know. I mean, I also grew up in a house where there was a lot of dysfunction, a lot, and I was adopted as well. So you know, you want to talk about those critical years where, in the very beginning, I was this baby in the foster system and then you know there is so much that happens to a person when in their very young ages and I have three of my grandkids that I've adopted and all three of them went through so much trauma, very, very young it is just critical that we help these kids and give them this tough love and that's what you're talking about. I mean, it's a tough love and really believing in them but at the same time, expecting them to be better and that's just it.
Speaker 2:And you do that by showing them what that means. It's in your behaviors, in your actions, and so it is again the reason I went with the age group 18, 19, and 20, at 17,.
Speaker 2:parents are involved and that just doesn't work. I can't have parents telling me which they have every right to what I should do with their kids at 18. You can tell me I'll listen, I'll be respectful, but I'm not going to do what you say. And then, 21,. You've begun your process. So I had to start somewhere and I picked 18, 19, and 20.
Speaker 2:Because of the education that I have, because of the experiences from the education I have, I can pretty much see how I can use a one-year program to address issues that were contrary in your youth. I recognize when there was abuse, I recognize all those things and I understand how to adapt and give you ways to adapt and overcome. So that is the ideal age 18, 19, and 20. And it's because I have full ability to understand what I'm looking at and to counter regardless of what your baggage you're bringing. And there's always hope. And there's always hope. And that program, if nothing else, leaves you feeling being part of something that was unique, a binding of a group of individuals that will be friends for a lifetime. And your internal was tested day in, day out, for 365 days and you can now trust your instincts. They're there.
Speaker 1:That is amazing. You know, to be able to reach the youth today and to be able to change their path in life by example, by leading by example, is really it's just a great concept. You talk about the walls that we build and the barriers that often prevent us from reaching our goals, which I have done many times in the past, but in your program, Honor Bound Academy, you emphasize the power of choice and personal responsibility in overcoming these barriers. You say choice is an absolute. How do you help young people break through and make meaningful choices and put that into action?
Speaker 2:The simple answer is that accountability. There is accountability for every one of your actions. And remember, for my Bud's career I was in class 106. I graduated in 1980, february 29th, and the transition through first phase, second phase, third phase in first phase the instructors were your enemy. In second phase they were teaching you because this was dive phase and you had to listen and understand that your life, dive phase, was underwater. And then third phase was land warfare and the progression of of student and instructor. It changed as you progressed and you were never their friends. But you saw that once you graduated and you became a SEAL and you went to a command of SEAL teams, that you all were bound by an experience and saw that it taught you how to overcome and that you didn't quit.
Speaker 2:And it comes down to that in understanding how to implement that into my program, where at the beginning I'm not their friends, where at the beginning I'm not their friends and at the end I'm not their friends. When they go out and become adults and they've begun their life and they find themselves in difficulties, they get to come back and the relationship is different. I'm no longer the director of the program, I'm Tom. I'm the one Tell me what's going on, let's figure it out.
Speaker 2:And so when you go in a one-year program, I have the ability to do so many things because I watched what was done to me through a program that is called Basic Underwater Demolition, seal training and all the ways in which the nuances have to occur so that trust is built in the end and you see that if you do something wrong you should be disappointing yourself, but you will know from a year that you're disappointing the staff because we're giving you everything that we have. We want you to succeed. And if you're giving it half measures that availed to nothing and there will be feelings of that, I don't do guilt, but I hold you accountable and I'm not going to say it's okay until you prove otherwise. And again, 365 days is a long time and a lot of stuff you get to do, and especially when you know what you're doing. So you're here.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I think that there's a lot of lack of accountability these days and a lot of sweeping under the rug and it's okay, baby, you know and catering to kids. There is so much going on in the world these days you know COVID-19, social media, changing societal norms that is going on. What do you see as the biggest challenges that these youth face and how does your program address these challenges? Besides accountability, I mean, what else can you do in that program to meet? I mean, I've got three kids that are COVID kids, you know, and the social media is almost impossible. So what are the things that you do in your program? Do you like strip their phones? Do you like strip their social media? Do you like? What do you do?
Speaker 2:It's it's here. There's nothing you can do, so let's use it in a beneficial way. Anything and everything that comes out of my mouth is researched, so this thing that comes to you in the form of that, this is a wonderful tool to be at your disposal, to have somebody say something and you can find out if it's the truth in a very short period of time. So to answer the question is I'm not going to take it away. That's a losing battle. Okay, what I'm going to do is show you how to use it in a productive way, and it also can aid. You know, you can go on to Siri and tell this thing what you want it to do.
Speaker 2:But languages to understand an individual, you understand their culture. To understand a culture, you have to understand the language, and this is a tool that I've used, that I can use. I can speak into it in English and it'll come out in Spanish or it'll come out in Russian. It allows you to be there to aid others. Remember, are you a taker or are you a giver? These are things that need to be taught. Again. In a program, all of that's addressed while you get to keep your phone.
Speaker 1:How do you teach them to be givers?
Speaker 2:You put it into a scenario that the way a SEAL is created, we're not individuals, we're teams and there are platoons. That's 14 people. Now. Rangers are different as Green Beret are different. All of the special forces are different in their accumulation. But you take groups of three, five, seven, 14, 25, and you mold them together and you see that in my operational years in the real world I am not going to let my fellow brother seal die, I'm going to catch the bullet. And okay, everybody feels the same way. So we're literally knocking each other out of the way to catch the bullet because I don't have to go home. You do. That's that was instilled in me from that military career that you know what the team comes first. And how do I implement that? It's a bonding. There are rites of passage in there. There are various phases that instill how you come to understand your place in the world, your place with your fellow friends, family and the world at large what you owe it.
Speaker 1:So you create a brotherhood in a sense, where you know you have to work together and it's not well, I mean the cliche or whatever you want. There's not an I in team. I mean where you have to work together and come out stronger, because here's the thing is, it's family. It's not an I in team. I mean where you have to work together and come out stronger.
Speaker 2:Because here's the thing, it's family, it's not family, the Alpha and the Omega. I ran a boys and girls club. I was the big brother, I wasn't the father, they got fathers, they got mothers. So I'm looking at, I'm creating. In that four-year took over um Paradise Valley, south San Francisco Boys and Girls Club. I had 59 youth. Four years later I had 440. That's amazing, because it was a place to come, that you were treated like family and I'm going to expect you to act like a family member, okay, and hold you accountable. And so I learned that that is doable. When kids know that you're authentic, that your word is your bond, they respond, and so it's not rocket science. The whole thing is I'm creating brother, brother, sister, sister, family relationships that you'll have for a lifetime.
Speaker 1:So it's showing people how to react and respond. Within a family, I mean there's going to be dysfunction and so that's where there's growth. So I mean that's where you learn how to get through those dysfunctional times and how to come out on the other end closer. Yes, because I mean we live in a world of dysfunction there's no doubt about it, and there's so much division right now and it's being able to figure out how to come closer together with dysfunction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, see, now the book is introduced in, because I'm telling a story and I'm looking at the generations. I you know, swat, yes, you do that Weakness, opportunity, threat, and I looked at each generation, from the greatest generation to the silent generations, to my generation, boomer, to X, y, z, and in looking at that, there is the understanding that somebody's going to have to give Bottom line. And as I'm sitting here at the end of my journey, I'm nearing the end of my work world. I, like so many, will have to work until it's all said and done because I didn't invest correctly and there's so many others like that. But the thing with it is is who's going to make the sacrifices for our youth?
Speaker 2:Right now, the country's in no, has no idea what's coming and it scares people and it angers people and once it actually occurs, the nation is going to be really angry and that second portion of class warfare, social warfare if that occurs, then we have lost, because the fact of the matter is, everything that we need is here, if there are those who are willing to sacrifice. So I looked at the greatest generation and what they could offer the silent generation and what they could offer the boomers, and what we can offer, and I'm seeing these three end ones, or these three oldest ones. We owe this generation, we have created a debt, and that's where I said the disparity in wealth is going to create civil war, is going to create civil war, and if we don't get a hold of that and what it requires to get a hold of is sacrifice the generations right now, no generation is making the sacrifice, nobody wants to give it up and we're going to leave a world of what to our youth? A world that is becoming a warming world, a world where there is now fires that rage and hurricanes. And who's going to stop and give?
Speaker 2:And at this stage, that's me. I'm doing this. I wrote this book so that I can't guilt you and I'm not going to guilt you, but I know the dirty secrets of the greatest generation, the silent generation, and my generation. I know the lies we've lived by and I'm just going to share those truths and let our kids know what we really are. And in doing so, in giving as I'm going to give, I hope others will see that there's a reason that we're doing it. We're not doing it to be nice people. We're doing it because our youth need us to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do mention where it's a country that's on the verge of collapse. Yep, and it is very scary times collapse, and it is very scary times. I mean there's times where I just have to turn off the TV because I just feel so much division within our country. And there was somebody who said to me, and it was pretty powerful, that you know our governments, they lead us with anger and fear and it needs to be led with information and empowerment, and those are very different things in how we can even handle our youth.
Speaker 2:Whoever shared that with you is incredibly insightful. So the fact of the matter is, a society to work requires a certain degree of fear. That fear brings human beings together. Sure, what we have today is fear run amok, and beyond all that we see, follow the money. You know what that's a chapter. You know what that's a chapter. I shared that the money is incorrect and that money being unbalanced is benefiting a very few, and those very few love every minute of this society that we're in, because they have their walls created, they have their abilities to withstand. As long as we allow this fear to be percolated and not look at what's really going on and asking that question what is this all about? Then we are condemned to be driven into war. As simple as that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there needs to be a lot more transparency going on. And I know, within my own household, you know, if we can, just, you know, make it on a more micro level where, within my own household, fear and anger there is. You know, we used to be afraid of our parents. This generation is not afraid of us, they're just not. It doesn't matter what you do, they're just not. So there is a healthy fear. There is nothing wrong with having a healthy fear, but there's too much fear going on and I can feel it. Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 1:Now you have a quote from Theodore Roosevelt that really resonated with me. I like that one. Yes, me too. It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes short again and again because there is no effort without error in shortcoming, but who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither knows victory nor defeat. This is beautiful to me. How does this quote speak to you and your life, and with the youth who you want to reach?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's as simple as that. The whole saying is you know what? We're put into a world for a certain amount of time. Live life, live it to its fullest, make mistakes, do foolishness, go and be insane. These are all the things that right now, everybody is pulling back at a time where we should move into this.
Speaker 2:The issues with fear and anger they are dangerous, but the fact of the matter is it's a human being that is angry and fearful and on the other side of the shoulder, you know the good angel, the bad angel. If you respond in kind, anger becomes more anger. But if you alter it and see that maybe the person's having a bad day and are you okay and you know what, there's a safety factor. I don't want you to get shot, stabbed or punched, but also take a step back and say do we really need to go here? And that human being is in there. And I have faith in humanity that we will find just that, our humanity, and the book is sharing that. These are where I think the problems are. This is the issues with our youth. This is my suggestion, what we could do with our youth. This is what I'm looking at, that I'm willing to give, and these generations, each of you can do this too. What?
Speaker 1:do you say? I also like how it's like get in the rain. You know, don't live outside of the rain, get in the rain. If you fail, you fail and that's fine. Like you said at the beginning of the show, it's your failures that you've learned from, more than your successes, and there is nothing wrong with being on that ground and figuring out how to get back up Exactly.
Speaker 2:All that it is is that's just it. The getting up and brushing yourself off is the lesson that we can share, you and I, as we're saying, and anybody listening we've been on the ground. You've got to know that. We've been on the ground. You're looking at us now because we stood back up and I'm saying I'm going to get knocked down again, but I also will get up again. So these words are powerful because of they're looking at us, understanding the truth.
Speaker 1:So you know, I do have a kind of a different question about this part of it because you know, I learned young, as an adopted, abused kid, that if I was going to make it in this world I had to rely on myself. I had to figure it out. It was like I'm getting up. I was also. I'm autistic, I have other disabilities, and I was told I probably wouldn't graduate high school the traditional route, and I ended up getting a master's degree by teaching myself how to learn. Now what I did was along the way, from the very beginning. There was no option for me not to fight and keep getting up. That just was the way it was going to be.
Speaker 1:But I think that maybe there are some people you know they have a lot of handouts. A lot of things are very easy for them and it's very difficult for them to understand that. You know you can do this yourself. You don't have to have somebody help you up. You need to figure it out and how to get up on your own. So I mean, for some of these youth that you might be coming across that have not really had to have that fight within themselves, how do you teach that? Can you teach it, or do you think that it's just something that's within us?
Speaker 2:Now I do come across that, as a matter of fact, last night I had a session with an individual and they are—every time I offered a suggestion, I was given an excuse and the thing with it is.
Speaker 2:I don't get to you know, get you angry. I don't get to tell you what I'm thinking. I'm a clinician. I need to find a way to get through that and have you hear me. And it's challenging. There are going to be the youth today that there's just nothing I'm going to be able to do, there's nothing anybody's going to be able to do. They're just not going to figure it out. There are those that you know I will never give up on a kid, but I will also say when you're ready to give me something other than an excuse, come back then. Right now I need to leave you to go back out into the world to learn a few more lessons, that what you're doing is what is creating this problem. And for you to get a different result, you have to change and those suggestions at some point. Hopefully, the individual will learn. But to your point, no, I can't save the world.
Speaker 1:Well, I always say to my own kids if you want better, you have to do better. You know, if you do bad, you get bad. If you do good, you get good. And that really is very true. I mean, if you said change, if you want different, you got to change. It's that simple, you know. You also had another quote that I loved in your book from Joseph Campbell about following your bliss and the doors will open, and I wish that I would have learned this a lot younger. So I think that it's a really great gift that you're giving these young people to be able to to know this here's.
Speaker 2:the thing is that joseph campbell became a hero because, uh, he passed away in in 89, 90, something like that, but he left, uh, a body of work in books, but in in videos he. Bill maher did an interview with him and he was amazing Because, look, the very essence of human is we're bound in myth. In myth, in ancient times, where there were no religions, there were magical, mythical moments, and Joseph Campbell embodied that in a way that he said that term. You know, when you have no answers for the individual, you will still always have one that you will offer in saying goodbye, and that is follow your bliss. That. What does that mean?
Speaker 2:Whatever it is in life that trips your trigger, that sets you in desire, that makes your blood boil, the hairs on your back stand up, that's it. Follow that, go after that. There is your. That's what will bring meaning to your life. And he said it. And, as I've shared, there are those that I can't get to and I'm not going to be able to, that I leave with them in the end. Then, well, you know what? I want you to follow your bliss.
Speaker 1:And we're not really great at everything. You know we are, and that's just the way it is. But if we follow what our passion is, the doors will open. But you have to be. I have a vision board and I like kind of like you know, I have it for me because I really do want to accomplish these things and I try really hard to manifest things, and you know, but it also comes with a lot of hard work. It just isn't like I want this, I want this Okay, it's just going to fall in my lap. You know it's, it's an action.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know what? I'm taking you back to your kids. Your kids are watching you and they you're leaving them the greatest gift you can give them those words. Words are powerful. They can help heal wounds. Words are amazing, but your actions and how you've lived your life, that your kids are watching. You're setting an example in action, not in words. The words are important, don't get me wrong, but what is most important is what you do and, in your case, what you've done your kids, I don't doubt they love you.
Speaker 1:Well, we have our moments, yeah, yeah, but they're all free, autistic and have a lot of disabilities and trauma and different things, and so what I do give them is I don't allow them to use those as excuses.
Speaker 2:Ah, there you go too.
Speaker 1:So that's what we really try to instill in our family is trying to really think outside of the box and try to figure it out anyway. Now, you, you know talking about this. We all have different sets of tools, and when I was in treatment, you know they tell you to change people, places and things and get a new tool belt basically and so you know you refer to that having a different set of tools. So could you talk more about your tools and what you will be using, those kinds of tools that you'll be using in the program?
Speaker 2:There's several types of tool belts. My own personal ones are truth and never giving up, never giving in. When I don't have an answer, asking for help, when I need therapy, I go to therapy. Yeah, so sorry that you feel that way and see that way, because the tool that therapy offers me and that I offer in therapy are ways to see life, because every one of us has talents and abilities. I don't have all the talents and I don't have all the abilities. So when that happens, I've learned that the emotions say you're not going to figure this one out, and then the requirement is to do something about it because I'm not going to quit. That means I got to go ask for help and that's my tool belt. And right now, uh, I learned as a clinician working with the military, that seven-year period as a military family life consultant, I saw the my way of doing therapy is cognitive behavioral therapy.
Speaker 2:It's ground, it's works, it's wonderful, but I'm looking at service members coming back from war who have seen death and their PTSD is off the charts, and I saw a clinician do this thing called eye movement desensitization reprocessing and I was like, wow, I want to do that. And the individual told me that if you need to be taught how to do it, you need to go to school for it, and the reason that's that is because if you do it wrong you can do damage. So I have gone back to school and am now a certified eye movement desensitization reprocessing. But the other ones that are on the horizon are right now we have the ketamine, we have the MDMA and we have the psilocybin. We have the MDMA and we have the psilocybin.
Speaker 2:Now, as a clinician that is sanctioned by the Board of Sciences in the state of California, I can't go there. I can't do that because they're not legal. But tools are incredible for males and females who are experiencing PTSD and it's even enlightening, beyond what you would have got, what you will go and use it for. They're truly eye-opening. So the belts, the tools my personal ones are that I'm truthful, honest, I am bound by that the clinical CBT, emdr. But these others are on the horizon and when they come, they're going to make such a difference to women who've been raped, men who've been raped, soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines. That is what I have most hopeful for, because there are such problems with the mental health of so many people in our society, but especially our former veterans.
Speaker 2:Suicide rate is there's 19 veterans that are going to kill themselves today and between 13 and 23,. Nobody wants to know that suicidal statistic. So you know what? Because society hides it, because they don't want to look at it.
Speaker 1:They're suffering in silence.
Speaker 2:They're suffering in silence. They're suffering in silence. And if I have affinity, I went in the military in 1979. That's four years after Vietnam, and everything that taught me, all the instructors, everything that went into creating my military career, was Vietnam era veterans. And the Vietnam era veteran is still. You know, they're survivors. You want somebody that will truly be awe-inspiring. The Vietnam era veterans that have made it and still are alive, they are to be told bravo Zulu, job well done. And so the majority of veterans are hurting in silence and deserve everything that they have given to us and our country. And the rare few are always going to be there and they matter too. But it's the numbers that right now of suicide are just staggering.
Speaker 1:That is so absolutely sad and devastating to our country and we need to do better. I don't know. Do you know what we could do as a country in order to be better in this situation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, figure out where the money is and put it where it belongs.
Speaker 1:Because the veterans need more money. No, their mental health.
Speaker 2:Everybody needs more money. The thing with the matter is the VA is doing everything in their power to be there for the veteran and you know they are trying. They're noble and honorable in their attempt. The hardships that we're experiencing. If you were to rebalance the monetary equation, so many of the issues fall away. And in the book I take it from A, b, c. I can't do it alone, but I understand what needs to be done and I'm here sharing with you that. In the book are offers of suggestions and if nothing else, I'm here and I'm never going to give up and I am advocating for youth at every turn. That's the end of my journey. Role is to advocate for young America. We're at a critical time.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are In your program. I noticed that you have it divided into elements fire, earth, air and water and I wanted to know the significance of these and how they guide participants through the journey of self-discovery.
Speaker 2:They're all nature and as a clinician, I'm very good at what I do. The greatest clinician I've ever met is nature itself. So for me, being a former Navy SEAL, the ocean, water, is my domain. Water speaks to me, water is when I'm having the difficulties. I emerge myself in water because in that way I find the gifts that nature provides. And there are differences. You know what Deserts there are, mountains, you know, know all of these things?
Speaker 2:Air I haven't in years, but jumping out of an airplane at 10 000 feet is, uh truly a spiritual event, because there comes a point where you can choose do you want to pull the cord or do you not? Wow, and that is a representation of the air. The water Fire is, fire cleanses. So as the youth come to me, I learned from the Boys and Girls Club that no two kids are alike but they're all the same club, that no two kids are alike but they're all the same. And where they're all the same is they want to believe in magic and they want to be challenged and they want the excitement and they want to be heard. And so funneling it through natural environments is a way to bring a calm, because you can teach survival in each of those, and they are everything that any human being needs. We always. If you ask somebody what's your favorite environment to be in, what's your favorite natural environment, everybody has an answer what's yours?
Speaker 1:Well, I like the beach, but I also like the forest. I grew up with woods behind me, and one of my favorite things to do was climb the trees and be in the trees. It felt like.
Speaker 2:I was one with nature. Oh, thank you, you just told what I'm trying to share. Yeah, you nailed it Because'm trying to share, yeah, that one, you nailed it Because that's exactly what it is Nature rejuvenates, it does, and so, from my perspective, six years ago, I gave my TV away. I don't have a TV. I don't. I need to be up on certain things. So I I'm aware, but I don't watch TV. I go out, I live in a very natural environment with trees and, um, it balances me, it's what I use. That we spoke of tool belts, that's that's one of my tools on the tool belt is nature, forests, when I am nature, and it's beauty and you can get back outside you know, that really helps depression.
Speaker 1:It really helps lift the spirit and you become one with God. And it is. It is. It's an amazing thing, because you know why? Well, partly is because nature is much bigger than us, and it's that connection with something that is much bigger than us and our problems.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is. So, you see, as difficult as it is, as troubling as it is, as angry and dangerous as it is, there's still hope.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there really is. Now you also. You talk about believing in yourself, trusting yourself and forgiving yourself in your book. Would you say that forgiveness, both for yourself and others, was a critical step in your own personal journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was able to forgive others and ask others for forgiveness. That's the beginning of recovery. Working with youth, seeing how they responded to me, I came to determine years into my sobriety that I had asked for forgiveness from everyone and I had forgiven everyone except for me, and the most profound thing that me, as a human being, can give myself is the forgiveness. I was discharged from SEAL Team 1 and it destroyed me. It was my identity In my mind.
Speaker 2:I had betrayed sacred trust and there was no going back and there was no way to fix that, and so I began my sobriety, and so I began my sobriety and I began working with youth and by their actions I saw the healing of forgiving and came to understand at some point that I've done it all except for I got to forgive me, and in doing that, the circle came around Life again right now is worth living and because of the youth that provided, that was part of that, it is my gratitude and giving back for the rest of my life. That comes from just what I shared. Comes from just what I shared.
Speaker 1:That just shows how powerful forgiveness is. It is so powerful, I mean, it's so much easier to wear the badge of shame than to wear the badge of forgiveness, because you know other people can look and say, well, you did this, and so it's hard to forgive ourselves sometimes, I think, because other people are reminding us also or maybe you know the consequences of what happened also remind us of what happened. But I think when I worked in the jails, I think one of the biggest things also there was the forgiveness you know I mean, many of them had really created a pretty difficult shadow behind them that you know that there was not a good rippling and that's really hard to forgive yourself, but it's not productive and it will not. It'll keep you from moving forward. So I think that one of the places that we all need to begin when we're going through some of these things is at a place of forgiveness for ourselves. I think that that's beautiful, no matter how hard it is.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, we've all done things that we could say, well, that's just, I'll never forgive myself for that, and I've actually said that to myself. And how productive is that? Yeah, well, I really want to thank you, tom, for being on. Can I ask can you share with us how people can help you with this program, how people can get a hold of you?
Speaker 2:This is the book Special Welfare, social Warfare, adolescence to Adulthood, a guidebook, a story of each generation's transition, what was and what is and what's missing, along with redistributing the wealth, otherwise social catastrophe. And I have a nonprofit that's called Honor Bound Academy that you can reach at thehonorboundacademyorg. Again, that's thehonorboundacademyorg, where you can find all that we've talked about the book, along with blogs and all the various what is it? My social media platforms where, in one stop at thehonorboundagenturyorg, you can go into my entire life and purpose.
Speaker 1:Well, it's amazing because you have completely dedicated your life to purpose and I think that that is so important. And you know, as we get older, I think that some people think, well, you know what's my purpose? I don't, you know. And you know there is no ending until we take our last breath, and even then some, hopefully, our shadow still continues in a positive way. But I mean, you know, I really believe that we always have a purpose on this earth and that we are to use everything that we've gone through as stepping stools that have gotten us here, that help us get you know, pass that on to other people so that they can help in their journey. So, because we are doing this journey together. So thank you so much for sharing your journey and insights with us, tom, your work is inspiring to me and I know it will be with our listeners. It's been a pleasure having you on Real Talk today.
Speaker 2:It's been great. Thank you for all the opportunities you've offered. So to everybody else, follow your bliss.
